Isamoor's ITB - a boring affair

[isamoor]

Vitals:
Years playing/experience: A decade of playing casual, and a few years of being more serious (but still not competitive).
Right/left-handed/ambidextrous: Right-handed
Throwing Style: RHBH and RHFH (Backhand preferred for body wear and tear, but I've got a decent forehand I'll use when appropriate.)
Golf Distance (avg/max*) for putter/mid/driver: Pilot: 240/260'; Buzzz: 260/285'; Teebird3: 315/335'

* Max distance is the greatest distance you can throw your top 2-3 drivers with any regularity


Optional:
Age: 38
Sex: M
Injuries/handicaps?: Nothing too bad.
Other sport proficiencies?: Nothing really. Biking.
Additional Information: Posting mostly to track for myself.
What do you like/dislike about your current bag?: I like that's it made of boring, replaceable molds.
Specific areas of desired feedback: Not really posting for feedback, but I'm happy to commiserate with anyone.
Immediate and long-term goals: Push over 350' consistently with Thunderbirds.


Bag:

Control Drivers (weight/plastic/model/(condition)/use):
Firebird - Premium Plastics - >170g - Anything that needs to fade hard and I can't reach with a Zone.
Thunderbird - Premium Plastics - >170g - Max distance driver.

Fairway Drivers:
Teebird3 - Premium Plastics - >170g - Placement shots.
Leopard3 - Premium Plastics - >170g - Shot shaping and tailwind shots.

Mids:
Buzzz - Premium Plastics - >175g - Distances between Pilots/Zones and fairway drivers.
Zone - Premium Plastics - >170g - Almost any shot 200' or less that isn't intending to go into the basket.
Sol - Premium Plastics - >170g - Mostly utility shots in the woods.

Throwing Putters:
Pilot - Premium Plastics - >170g - Anytime I need something straighter than a Zone.
(Occasionally, if I'm carrying a really full loadout, I'll also include an Envy/Proxy combo.)

Putting Putters:
Link - Exo Soft - >170g - Only on shots I intend to go into the chains.


Additional Fieldwork Discs:
Valkyrie & Undertaker - Practicing angle control with drivers. (So I don't create too many bad habits throwing too many birds...)
Mako3 - Practicing angle control with mids, and making sure the OAT is under control.




General notes: I consider this a pretty boring bag. Discraft mids and Innova drivers. Easy to keep multiples of all the molds on hand. The Sol is likely the least common disc, and I only really carry it on wooded courses. I really only use Pilots as driving putters because MVP/Streamline seems to be one of the few companies that can (semi-)consistently churn out premium plastic putters with board-flat tops (and Envys seem like too much Zone overlap for my standard bag). I only recently got enough arm speed to justify swapping Thunderbirds for Valkyries. I love my Valks, but Thunderbirds are more predictable on the course. I bounce around putting putters too much still, but I am currently enjoying the Exo Soft Links a lot (like a slightly shorter/thinner Wizard).

 

[elmexdela]

surprised you dont roll with a fb and a variety of thb and cut the leo3 and tb3 out

 

[isamoor]

Very reasonable question. I can usually get a minimum 20-25' separation between my Teebirds and Thunderbirds, which is honestly only barely enough to justify having both IMHO. If I'm carrying a smaller bag I'll leave the Thunderbirds out. If I felt more confident with Wraiths I'd likely just go Teebird3->Wraith for more separation. For those very common "stock hyzers" just over 300' though, I'm meaningfully more accurate with the slower Teebird3.

As for the Leopard3s? There's just some shots that I feel more comfortable with a "naturally understable" mold. I can straighten out a mellower Teebird3 with a full rip... but it's usually easier to hit a dead straight line with a Leopard3 hyzer-flipped. And I can flex a Teebird3 in a tailwind... but the Leopards require less extreme release angles in that situation.

I can definitely play a solid round with a Teebird3 as my only driver. (Or a Leopard3 as my only driver if it's a tight wooded course...)


Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

 

[wolfhaley]

Wraiths are excellent. You outta try one out.

 

[isamoor]

So I totally bought a couple Wraiths back in the day when I thought I was hot stuff (175g GStar). I don't think I ever threw them over 300' back then (maybe >300' forehand with a fair amount of anny/OAT...).

I still have those couple Wraiths, a couple Traces and a few Orcs. I take them out into the field periodically. I even bagged the Orcs at one point last year. I definitely understand the love for the Wraiths, and they'd likely be what I'd bag if/when I put a distance driver back into my bag regularly.

I also used Shrykes for a bit. They really do bomb. They really aren't that controllable. I eventually sold all my Shrykes for cheap to stop myself from reaching for them...

Thanks for the note!

Also, obligatory Putting Putter Progression note: Wizard -> Colt (If XTs were readily available I might still be here...) -> Wizard -> Judge -> flirted with Warden/Deputy -> Voodoo -> Link

 

[isamoor]

Also, I think I saw this someone else, and it's a fun exercise. If I had to build an optimal 1-disc bag, then a 2-disc bag, then a 3-disc bag etc, what order would I add my molds:

1st disc: premium Buzzz - Would likely net me the most birdies on your average course on its own. And allow me to comfortably par almost any hole.

2nd disc: premium Zone - I really value this disc for approach shots, and it would totally shave off strokes approaching with a Zone instead of a Buzzz. Also a little better for putting than a Buzzz, but not much. Also always a few holes on most courses that are just perfect for a Zone off the tee.

3rd disc: Exo Soft Link - Finally to the point that having a putting putter would likely have the next best ROI. I still wouldn't likely throw many drives or upshots with this disc (too easy to taco).

4th disc: premium Teebird3 - Likely worth adding more controlled distance next. Probably enables the possibility of 3-5 more birdies per round over a Buzzz.

5th or 6th disc: premium Pilot - Time to stop flexing Zones to get straight approaches on those tight shots.

5th or 6th disc: premium Firebird - There are plenty of holes/situations that just need a chicken. You can fake it with a Teebird3 for a while, but it's not the same.

Past that is just so course dependent. And honestly, I'm a little split on whether I'd want the premium Pilot or the Firebird as my 5th disc. I'm pretty confident I'd want discs 1-4 in that order though (Buzzz->Zone->Putter->Teebird3). We'll see how much my opinion changes over time...

 

[autocrosscrx]

I've just recently revisited the Zone/Sol combo and I love it... to the point that I've ditched my throwing putter slot at least temporarily.

 

[isamoor]

Although I do like my Sols... I don't know that I'd ever bag them without a throwing putter. It's just too hard to get them to go dead straight for 220-250'. I mean, you can hyzer flip them, but they eventually just flip the rest of the way over. Which is awesome when you want it to happen, but there are so many times I just need to throw straight.

I do always describe the Sol as the anti-Zone though. I parked a rather hard wooded hole at a local course with a forehand Sol off the tee the other day. The pin position lined up great for the anti-fade forehand. Of course, a backhand Zone just doesn't shape up the same, so I suppose they aren't full opposites...

 

[autocrosscrx]

Although I do like my Sols... I don't know that I'd ever bag them without a throwing putter. It's just too hard to get them to go dead straight for 220-250'. I mean, you can hyzer flip them, but they eventually just flip the rest of the way over. Which is awesome when you want it to happen, but there are so many times I just need to throw straight.

I do always describe the Sol as the anti-Zone though. I parked a rather hard wooded hole at a local course with a forehand Sol off the tee the other day. The pin position lined up great for the anti-fade forehand. Of course, a backhand Zone just doesn't shape up the same, so I suppose they aren't full opposites...

I shelved mine for a very long time because I thought it was too touchy, but mine flies pretty straight. And any fade or turn is really gradual. My biggest problem is that the distance is so easy that I tend to miss long.

 

[isamoor]

I'll agree with that. The only time I really tried to max distance a Sol, it went a bit over 300' without really trying hard. It was an extreme hyzer flip and I definitely wouldn't do it on a course, but it was fun to see.

 

[isamoor]

Played a couple rounds on the hardest local wooded course: blue tees for the first round and gold tees for the second round.

After the first, blue tee round, I wasn't sure why I'd packed the Leopard3s. I could theoretically reach most pins with a Buzzz (although I of course hit a lot of trees), and a few holes called for a forehand Teebird3. I probably have 10-20% more distance than the last time I played here. But then I went back through and did the gold tees and I think I used the Leopard3s off the tee for almost half the holes (to very good effect). Some Leopard3 throws were turnovers and others were >300' straight hyzerflips. I definitely didn't throw par for the round, but I got a couple birdies and plenty of pars.

There are a couple long, open holes and I did feel good having the Thunderbird, although my score would likely have been the same with just the Teebird3. I just felt more confident pushing long with the Thunderbird, even if I couldn't actually reach the >375' pin positions.

I bagged the Proxy/Envy instead of the Pilot today. I didn't really use them much (1-2 throws each). The Zone/Sol were the workhorses. I think I threw the Sol the most I ever have today, and I don't think I regret any of those throws (even when a couple approaches went long).

Only pulled out the firechicken on a handful of throws, but I don't regret carrying it at all. Didn't need to tomahawk it today, but I often do use that to scramble in the woods.

There was only really one gold tee that I just didn't feel like I could shape the shot I needed. It needed to be a pretty short S-shot. I got kinda close flexing a chicken, but I think I actually could have done it with one of my kid's Diamonds. I'll have to remember to toss one of those in if I go back to this course.

It was a lovely day to be out on the course. Here's to hoping for more spring days like today.

Aiming to make a dubs night at one of our short, open courses next week. I'll have to think a bit more about what I bring to that type of course.

 

[isamoor]

Played a very wooded course with shorter holes with my kids last weekend. They hogged all the pilots; I thought I'd brought enough for everyone, but I hadn't.

The longest hole only needed a buzzz. I tried to hyzer flip a Sol to hit some short straight tunnels. That wasn't really that effective. Definitely need to make sure I've got a neutral throwing putter for myself going forward.

 

[isamoor]

Played a league night on a fairly short, open course. But right on a reservoir with near constant 10-20mph winds to add some challenge. Had lots of fun, which was the important part.

Lots of Zones and Firebirds throws of course; mostly to good effect (although I almost got a black ace with a Firebird when a gust of wind sent it wildly off course). Good success with a lighter weight Buzzz in the tailwind. The Proxies were just too long in the tailwind; it was hard to range them (my first practice throw with a Proxy sailed ~75' long into a creek). The Buzzzes were easier to throw low and hard and range by controlling what weight I threw. Or just lay into a Zone for a 200' tailwind shot that had room to fade.

I was impressed at the difference between a fresh Teebird3 and a fresh Thunderbird in the headwind. There are a couple ~>300' headwind ~tunnel shots (or tunnel enough I can't fit a Firebird). The Thunderbird did a much better job of holding the line in ~10mph headwind. I mean, I'm sure someone with a smoother release could work a Teebird3 on those lines, but the Thunderbird was reliable tonight for that work (when I didn't slam the first available tree).

I went ahead and pulled out a Proton Envy on a few holes. I don't usually bag those, but with the wind up I tossed them in. I expected some modest fade, but with a firm throw they were just dead straight and fairly good at ignoring the wind. I screwed up my lines a couple times because I wasn't expecting such a straight flight.

Didn't really regret leaving out the Pilot and the Sol. The Sol especially didn't seem appropriate with the wind up this high and most holes being pretty open. I'm starting to think I should generally bag the classic Envy/Proxy pairing and leave the Pilots to the kids (or to smaller bag rounds and field work). The Zone and Envy really weren't overlapping tonight.

Didn't use the Leopard3 any, but mostly because there weren't any tailwind shots over ~300'.

Felt a little hesitant putting with Links in the wind. Putted with the Zones a few times. Don't think I would have felt any more confident with Wizards though. And did nail a clutch Zone putt on a late hole. Traded for a Geo Link while I was there just to try out a slightly different plastic as well; it at least feels fun and different.

 

[isamoor]

I've just recently revisited the Zone/Sol combo and I love it... to the point that I've ditched my throwing putter slot at least temporarily.

Did another wooded course today. Just wasn't feeling the throwing putters today. I had a lightweight buzzz that I was doing much better as a gap hitter.

Might try just keeping a Sol and 2+ Buzzz in the bag for a bit instead of any of the Axiom/MVP/Streamline.

Driver set of birds and leopards was working well.

 

[isamoor]

Had a rather windy weekend here. Originally tried to do some field practice with some mellow mids; gave up on that quickly. (They were fine for downwind, but took pretty extreme hyzer upwind).

Went back later with some Teebird3s, Leopard3s and Thunderbirds. Did a few rounds of one-leg drills, and that seemed to help a lot with reminding me of what it feels like to end balanced and not leak power past my brace. Had a good hour of throwing birds upwind and leopards downwind after that. (I also threw the birds downwind to get a feel for how hard they faded.) Tossed a few Orcs and Valks I used to bag to see how I felt about them. They didn't seem to really offer much over birds and leopards so back on the shelf they went (likely to find a new home).

Interesting that a well thrown champ Teebird3 doesn't seem unduly bothered by the wind. I still think I'd disc up to a champ Thunderbird on the course in a headwind most of the time (but I'll likely do some second shots with my Teebirds when I can to get a feel for the difference). I have a single Metal Flake Teebird3 that I haven't thrown; mostly because I know I can't really get replacements right now, so I shouldn't get used to the feel of it. I do wonder how it'd do in a headwind though...

I've also decided I'm spoiled by the 5x F2 Color Glow Champ Leopard3s I have. I mixed in some regular Champ Leopard3s and found I liked the grip and flex much less. Can't really get replacements for those Glow Leopard3s though, so will need to work on seasoning the regular champs and getting more used to their feel.

 

[isamoor]

Nice weather overall, but continues to be windy.

Did another couple days of field work. Working to cement the muscle memory of ending balanced on the brace leg (seem to be doing okay on that).

Also seem to be confirming that the Thunderbirds aren't doing much over the Teebird3s, even in the wind. Now, it takes a champ Teebird3 to fight a headwind, and sometimes with a bit of a hyzer-flip line, but I'm still just overall better at hitting those angles with the Teebird3 than a smooth flat release with the Thunderbirds. I'll keep practicing with the Thunderbirds, but on the course I'd probably just bag a variety of Teebird3s right now.

I was pretty happy with my Leopard3 tailwind consistency. I had pretty tight clusters at ~325' in a tailwind on a couple sets of throws.

I also pulled out some old Wraiths I had for the windy field work. They were max weight GStars, but modestly seasoned. I've gotten a lot more arm speed since the last time I threw those. They were tailwind bombers for me today, but did not enjoy a headwind. It felt weird wrapping a powergrip around a 2.1cm rim (it's been almost a year I'd say), but I seemed to be pretty effective at controlling the nose angle. I'm pretty sure I put 1-2 tailwind shots over 400' with them (I only threw like 5 total, so that was pretty reasonable consistency). I have a fresh proton Trace I'll bring out next time to compare; the proton plastic should make that much more stable than the GStar Wraiths.

Overall I felt I was getting a little too flippy into the headwind. Usually means I'm a bit wobbly on my release, so likely need to break out the unforgiving mids for the next few field sessions (assuming the winds get below 10mph...)

Also need to do some more self-recording and make sure I'm planting/crushing-the-can before pulling (I'm still consciously trying on this one).

Probably won't hit the courses much this weekend (gardening with the Missus is the order of business for mother's day weekend), but I hope for some more good field sessions. At the moment I'm probably spending almost 3x more time in the field than on the course. But my field is a block away, so I suppose that's pretty normal for a family guy with kids.

 

[isamoor]

Brief odd note: thought I was losing touch with my leopards. Was doing some unrelated Teebird comparisons (I have one metal flake and was curious about PLH effect... Yea, it's noticeably higher). Decided to do a Leopard3 PLH inventory as well. Found out the pretty pink champ one I liked the look of had a freakishly high PLH (even compared to other champs). I had kept in the mix for a couple weeks of field work and thought I was just wildly inconsistent on releases (which I am... But...). Benched that bad boy and will find it a new home. I had just thought the narrower rim would keep that mold consistent enough (in the same plastic). And it does, but only for the most part.

Also learned that the recent color glow champ Leopard3s have a surprisingly low PLH (which I sorta knew from throwing them, but still didn't expect them to line up with my GStar leopards...).

Also learned the current run of opaquish yellow orange champ has a consistently lower PLH across multiple molds (Teebird, thunderbird, beast). I like the grip on that blend as well.

 

[jdw80550]

I would recommend that you add a Control US disc into the bag. If the Thunderbird is your max distance disc, then you should look into something like a Sidewinder. It'll be similar to the leopard, but give you a little more distance than the Thunderbird, unless you've got one that is beat to $#!%.

 

[isamoor]

Thanks for the suggestion sir. You encouraged me to do a fairly heavy field work weekend to mess around with basically everything I have faster than a Teebird. Here are some notes/results:

I have 3x Sidewinders. A mix of >170g Star/GStar. I can pretty much get these all to fly true to their numbers every time. I'm even fairly reasonable at hyzerflipping them to ~straight (i.e. hyzerflip them enough they end straight ahead a little over 350'). But even though I'm fairly reasonable at that shot, it's a highly wind-sensitive shot. And I'd rather carve woods lines with Leopards/Stalkers.

Next to the Sidewinders on the shelf I had a couple Insanities I'd forgotten about. Took those out too and had more consistent results than the Sidewinders. The Insanities were a chunk more consistent (/forgiving) and a bit longer (which is expected). Used them off the tee on two open holes later in the day and got two birdies (one of which I don't think I've birdied since I quit throwing Shrykes). For my current arm speed I might toss an Insanty in as a max-d driver.

Did take out a seasoned Valk. Huge distance (more than Sidewinders), but just not reliable (less reliable than the sidewinders, which doesn't really surprise me any more, I find most -2/2 turn/fade molds to be pretty darn squirrly. Even squirrelier than -2/1 or -3/1. Some reason the Insanities are a non-squirrly almost -2/2, likely gyro things).

I have 1x lightly seasoned Champion Viking. I do enjoy that disc and can put it 20-30' past my Teebirds almost every time (but not as far as the Insanities). It flies very true to the numbers for me. About the same as most GStar Thunderbirds (but I trust the Viking more with the slightly reduced glide). If this was a more popular mold I'd be more prone to bagging it.

I have a nice spread of Teebird3 stabilities now. I snagged a couple OTB Open Luster Champion ones that fly just like the older Metal Flake I have (and have the same PLH). Those are nice headwind fighters or baby firebirds. I've got a variety of max-distance champs (my favorite are 2-3 gummy champs). And I've got some tailwind friendly (or no wind) star/gstar/color-glow-champ ones. By grabbing the right stability, I can basically keep up with the Thunderbirds in most situations. At this point, I'm mostly bagging the Thunderbirds if there are water carrries because all the champ Thunderbirds fly mostly the same and they're easier to replace.

I did pull out a Lucid Trespass and some Neutron/Proton Traces. I'm really not good enough for them yet. Got a few good rips, but nothing really much over 375' (and likely half under 350'). I know that's a lot of nose-angle issues, but I'm struggling with full power grip (on the far rim), wrist down, and committing all the way into the brace. The seasoned Lucid Trespass was the most manageable, but they all went back on the shelf (to take them down in another month or so and see if I've improved enough). The Tresspass was as long as the Insanities... when I got the angles just right.

I've decided I just don't like stock champion Leopard3s. They're just too touchy IMHO. Thrown with less than ~315' of power, they just don't turn. Throw them >325' and suddenly they have ~-1.5 turn. It's likely user error, but it's annoying as crap (basically I can turn them 2/3 times that I try right now, which is horrible for on the course planning). My GStar Leopards and Color Glow Champ Leopard3s are much more predictable (they get gradually more turn the further you throw them). I've tried five different stock champion Leopard3s of slightly different weight, wear and flexibility, and they all have this weird cliff for me. Most of them have found good homes around the area now. (I kept a couple to try occasionally to see if I've worked out whatever I'm doing wrong to cause this.)

I finally feel fairly comfortable with a four-finger power grip on my Stalkers. (I'd been using a three-finger power grip on them, but that causes a lower rotational speed, which amplifies the turn and fade.) I don't love the Stalkers for wide open holes (prefer the faster spinning teebird/leopard), but I really appreciate them in the woods (their larger diameter causes a slower flight speed which I like in the woods). Wide open tailwind shots are pretty reasonable too (but so are Leopards...). They also have a nice ramp up where more power gives gradually more turn. And still nice for woods forehands (fan forehand grip only, with the pointer finger out into the flight plate).

I'm coming to grips with the fact I can't really straighten out most >=175g Buzzzes. I keep thinking I want to throw them on ~275' tunnel shots, and always have immediate regrets. I need to think of them as shorter teebirds really. I do have a few seasoned and or lighter weight ones, but those can get squirrelly (definitely user error I know). But I am forcing myself to do more Buzzz forehands (mostly in the woods). I used to throw them forehand a lot, but I eventually got scared. Now I'm realizing that's because I was trying to push them to ~>250' forehand. Even though I can only smoothly throw a forehand Buzzz as far as a Zone (225' or so)... the forehand Buzzz carves different lines than a Zone (and a very useful, gradual arc at that).

Played a woods course and realized I wasn't actually fan gripping anything. I was using a fork/pinch grip even on the shorter holes. Forced myself down to a true fan grip and got much more control (putters and mids).

Still having trouble loving any throwing putter. Pilots have given me good success, but field work shows I really should likely be throwing something more lid-like (i.e. slower) for that 150-200 range straight shot (when I don't have a line for my zones). Forced myself to only bag BigZ Roaches today and those worked okay (also putted with them which went much better than driving/approaching with them). (Still actually bagging Links for putting putters, just forgot to bag them... don't ask.)

Zones are still money. Parked every approach on a round today. Pretty good off the tee (tried to force a Zone out to ~250' and regretted it, otherwise fine). To anyone reading this: if you haven't tried a Zone, you really should. Pigs/Harps/Tactics/Rats etc are all close, but none of them are Zones (IMHO).

 

[isamoor]

Did another large field session. Mostly packed a spread of speed 7-9s. Nice and warm here today, so felt plenty limber. Was a bit windy. Did a better job delaying my pull through; felt like everything was going 10-20' longer on average. Eventually got tired and sloppy. Noticed I tried to bend over more when I'm tired. Forced myself upright for the last 10min or so and got back to reasonable.

Teebird3s were still money. Enjoy have the stability spread. The gummy champs were consistently touching 350' (with a consistent -1/2 flight). The stiff champs were flying about the same as the champ Thunderbirds. (Really don't think I should be bagging Thunderbirds anymore.) The color glow champs and stars were pretty dead straight.

The single Viking I had was flying almost exactly the same lines as the gummy champ Teebird3s. Perhaps it would be easier to snag more Vikings than gummy champ Teebird3s. I'll keep an eye out for either.

I only took my color glow Leopard3s. They were still money as well. Got some nice late turn flights out past 325'. It made me want to grab the stock champions just to see if I was past that speed requirement where they didn't feel consistent.

Undertakers are still very fun discs to throw. As Paul McBeth said in the first video of him throwing them: "They just go so straight." I obviously can't manipulate them like a pro can, but I can appreciate them. I like how consistent the mold is from disc to disc as well. I imagine the flat/straight wing bottom helps make that happen.

Insanities were not enjoying the wind. I also only grabbed them out after I was starting to get a bit tired.

I had a few beasts. Realized my GStar Beast must likely be the Beast-X mold. The wing is concave, and it just doesn't fly like the champs I have (the champs are squirrely in a bad, bad way). I enjoy the Beast-X. Too bad it's a mess to try and find more of them.

I had one Escape. It flew like a Sidewinder. It seems like they always do. Trilogy plastic is weird (but does feel nice). My brother likes Escapes, so this is likely going on his gift pile again.

Looks like some good weather this weekend, so hopefully plan on getting a round or two in.