Isamoor's ITB - a boring affair

[acrosley]

Are you still bagging the Envy? I'm really enjoying mine as a throwing putter and find it's different enough from the zone to justify bagging both

 

[isamoor]

Are you still bagging the Envy? I'm really enjoying mine as a throwing putter and find it's different enough from the zone to justify bagging both

At the moment I'm mostly bagging Pilot + Zone (+ Sol for wooded courses).

I wouldn't say that the Envy and Zone overlap, as much as I just need the 200' straight shot more often, and the Pilot offers that better than the Envy. The Proxy goes 200' really, really straight, but I've found it hard to range with so little late fade.

There are a couple wooded courses near me where I don't really need anything longer than a Buzzz (or a Leopard/Stalker perhaps). For those I'll sometimes go Pilot+Envy+Proxy+Zone+Sol. And if the wind is strong on a course I'll go Envy+Proxy instead of Pilot.

I really like that all of Envy+Proxy+Pilot basically feel identical in the hand, so it's not hard to swap them out as needed.

 

[isamoor]

Had a good field session today. Felt good on my pull through timing. And fixed a low elbow issue that was causing a bit of nose up and bad follow through.

Actually got all the way up to distance drivers, and felt like they were in control. Mostly Traces, but I mixed in a seasoned GStar Wraith and a seasoned Lucid Trespass. I feel like when you get up above a 2cm rim there's a lot of disc-to-disc variation, so it didn't feel too weird swapping between Trace/Wraith/Trespass (they're all right at a 2.1cm rim). I have a slight preference for the Trace (I like the flight a bit better, and I feel the between disc variation is lower). I was pretty much clearing 350' on every throw, and clearing 375' on more than half. I even clipped over 400' with a slight tail wind. These were max weight discs on golf lines (e.g. only ~10 feet in the air with a touch of natural turn). Honestly the first time I've thrown over 400' on a golf line; it felt good. (I don't consider a hyzer-flipped Shryke a "golf line" personally, and that was most of my prior >400' throws.)

Not sure I'd bag them on a course yet. Was definitely wilder left-to-right. And it was a full power rip. I'm trying to be better about throwing under control while on the course. But maybe with a few more weeks of practice I can smooth things out. (Or if I travel to an open bomber course that would benefit from such things.)

I also decided that I really only like my Color Glow Champ Leopard3s... and that's not great since you can't really replace them. I also like my Z Stalkers... and those are much more replaceable at the moment. I find I can consistently get -2 turn out of the Stalkers if I want/need that, and it flies slower/more controllable than a Leopard3. I can finesse a Leopard3 into a headwind better... but I'm not really gonna throw either a Stalker or a Leopard into a headwind on a course.

So I think my full driver line-up at the moment would be:

Z Stalkers - Big S-turns or hyzerflips. Carving lines in the woods. Shorter tailwind shots. Distances up to ~325'.
Teebird3s (variety of champ and star) - Placement shots. Headwind shots with firm champ. Distances up to ~325' (350' for the gummy champs that fly -1/3 lines).
Z Undertaker - Straight drives out to ~350'. Tailwind placement shots (tailwinds take out all my turn on these).
Traces (variety of neutron and proton) - Max distance on controlled lines. Headwind shots with firm proton. Tailwind shots with flippy neutron. Distances up to ~380'.

I almost feel like Stalker/Teebird3/Undertaker might be too much. But when I carry them all, I do feel comfortable shaping different shots with each of them. I like how consistent the Z Stalkers and Z Undertakers are from disc to disc. I work with how inconsistent the Teebird3s are (even across just champ and star).


Also was just not impressed with my Thunderbirds today (or any this last couple weeks really). I brought a wide variety to the field... but just didn't really have the form/speed to separate them from my Teebirds. I guess I need to be able to put 11 speeds 450' before I can squeeze enough extra distance out of a Thunderbird (over a Teebird). I also have MF and Luster champ teebirds that fly fine into a stiff headwind (and Thunderbirds only did okay into a really stiff headwind). I also suspect if I paid the dough for some older Thunderbirds I might find some mellower ones (I hear the PM 3x in particular have a touch of turn). But I think the Undertakers serve that purpose well enough (and are easy to replace right now). Also, my GStar Thunderbirds do show turn, but they don't even have as consistent fade as my Undertakers (i.e. they're a bit fickle about how much fade they show from throw-to-throw for me). I know it's operator error, but I just don't want that uncertainty weighing on me when I pick them up. So I'm tossing them further back on the shelf to age and gather dust for a bit while I see if I can improve enough to get enough out of them.


I want to practice some tomahawks and grenades with some of these discs soon. There are a couple courses near me that I feel would likely benefit from being able to execute those shots on ~200' holes. I feel adequate throwing tomahawks on scramble shots, but I seldom reach for it off the tee like I suppose I should. I also need to better understand the distances I can get with the various drivers (throwing controlled enough I don't hurt myself).


I'll go back and make an updated copy of the first post now.

 

[isamoor]

Bag:

Distance Drivers (weight/plastic/model/(condition)/use):
Trace - Premium Plastics - >170g - Max distance shots out to 380'. Proton for slight headwind and Neutron for max distance.

Control Drivers:
Firebird - Premium Plastics - >170g - Anything that needs to fade hard and I can't reach with a Zone.
Undertaker - Z - >170g - Straight-ish shots out to ~350'. Never into a headwind.

Fairway Drivers:
Teebird3 - Premium Plastics - >170g - Placement shots out to ~340'. Stiff champion for headwind drives.
Stalker - Z - >170g - Shot shaping (especially in the woods) and strong tailwind shots.

Mids:
Buzzz - Premium Plastics - >175g - Distances between Pilots/Zones and fairway drivers.
Zone - Premium Plastics - >170g - Almost any shot 200' or less that isn't intending to go into the basket.
Sol - Premium Plastics - >170g - Mostly utility shots in the woods.

Throwing Putters:
Pilot - Premium Plastics - >170g - Anytime I need something straighter than a Zone.
(Occasionally, if I'm carrying a really full loadout, I'll also include an Envy/Proxy combo.)

Putting Putters:
Link - Exo Soft - >170g - Only on shots I intend to go into the chains.


Additional Fieldwork Discs:
Valkyrie & Leopard3 - Practicing angle control with drivers. (So I don't create too many bad habits throwing too many birds...)
Mako3 - Practicing angle control with mids, and making sure the OAT is under control.

 

[isamoor]

Are you still bagging the Envy? I'm really enjoying mine as a throwing putter and find it's different enough from the zone to justify bagging both

Alright, you inspired me to do a fieldwork session with just Zones, Pilots, Proxies and Envies.

And yea, you're right: the Envy doesn't really overlap the Zone. And the fade the Envy does have makes it just that much more predictable.

I'll likely have to force myself to always field work with Proxies anytime I field work with Envies (to make sure I don't flex all my putter shots), but I do think I'll try just bagging Envies instead of Pilots for awhile. That baby teebird flight is so comforting off the tee.

I kinda wonder how Envies compare to premium Lunas. I'm not going to pay $30+ per disc though, so it may takes years for me to ever answer that one.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[isamoor]

So I'd been fighting a bad case of nose-up-itis all week. Finally got a chance to take a pile of leopards to the field and work it out. I originally thought I was dropping my elbow too much (which I was). But I just couldn't force that elbow up (it was a symptom, not a cause). After a bit of reading on here, I came to the realization that I was reaching back too low, and tilting my spine backwards some to do it. After slowing things down and forcing myself to reach out (more than back) on a pretty level plane, I was again getting the nice leopard turns. I went ahead and snagged a couple mellow GStar Wraiths and got them doing a nice -1/3 flight out to ~360 on a gentle rip. Actually felt like I was throwing at ~80% like you always read about.

I hope to get out some tomorrow and work on some repetition.

And I do think Leopards are some of the best field work drivers for exposing flaws. Teebirds just go shorter when thrown nose up. Leopards lose most of their distinctive turn...

 

[isamoor]

Having some fun the last couple weeks; not changing much with the bag.

Putting solid enough with the Envys. ~Driving them okay.

Feel a little off with the Buzzz, but still good enough.

Teebird3s are still absolutely solid. As are the firebirds.

Sent the stack of Traces to a friend who has better angle control than I do. Picked up a stack of F2 star Wraiths. Really enjoying the extra dump of a Wraith over a Trace. Not quite getting the Wraiths 400' in the field (backhand). Getting them comfortably over 350' on the course (backhand). Also feeling pretty comfortable forehanding them over 300' (field and course).

Tried an all Leopard3 and Insanity bag today (to keep me honest on nose angles). I once again have decided I dislike all premium Leopard3s (well, stock star and champ mainly). Just such a thin line between enough speed to trigger a turn vs no turn. GStar Leopards seem to just have more turn as you throw them faster. (As do the mellow PLH color glow champ Leopard3s). Insanities also seem to have a very consistent turn across many speeds. I did a couple very nice forehand hyzer flips with insanities on the course recently.

Should likely keep the more mellow leopard(3)s to practice nose angle in the field. Might gift the rest of my star/champ Leopard3s to my brother (he's a laser with them).

Need to get the Stalkers back into the field. They seem pretty good about giving me spin feedback. The amount of turn+fade on those is very sensitive to spin speed.

I also practiced with some DX Eagles for a potential wet round this week. They are very spin sensitive as well. Need to pick up a couple fresh ones to have a full cycle for wet rounds.

Doing pretty good digging my thumb into the flight plate these days (also making sure I get on my front foot before release).

Not doing as good of job ending completely balanced on my brace foot (I keep leaking past it). Need to tighten that up before I break my foot again...

 

[isamoor]

Been having some fun out on the course 1-2 times a week. Hitting the (neighborhood) field more like 2-3 times per week.

Still doing well with the solid core of envy/zone/buzzz/teebird3/firebird. Doing pretty well with the Wraiths; just not as consistent, which makes sense with the wider rim.

I do want to call out how well I've been doing with the Insanity (both in the field and on the course). It really is incredibly consistent in its flight. I pulled back out some sidewinders to compare yesterday and I just felt much better carving lines with the Insanities. Loving it for hyzerflip lines. I can still get the Wraiths further on golf lines, so I feel good/justified bagging Wraiths on longer courses.

So I definitely mix in sol/proxy/instanity into the bag based on the course. Figure I should try to find an understable disc between the proxy and insanity that I enjoy. Leopard(3)s are close...

 

[isamoor]

Silly glitch caused a double post. Deleted.

 

[isamoor]

Had a good field work session. Keep trying to find a ~neutral 9 speed that I mesh with. I do okay with Thunderbirds/Vikings/Undertakers/etc. But I just don't find that I put them much further than my Teebirds. On the other hand, I'm feeling pretty comfortable with Wraiths out on the course now. I don't use them on tight lines, but they do go comfortably further than my Teebirds.

During my field work session this morning I did hit the trifecta: Buzzz=300', Teebird3=350', Wraith=400'. Those were my best throws; my averages were a good 20-30' shorter.

 

[isamoor]

Had a good round on one of our tightly wooded course that has a mix of short and bomber holes. I bagged a ~170g Buzzz and used it on the shorter, tight lines. Had pretty good luck. Mostly threw a hyzer-flipped Insanity on the longer tee shots; probably got about half of those shots correct. Didn't brave a Wraith with so little horizontal room to work with.

Went with the lightweight Buzzz over a hyzer-flipped Sol. Didn't really feel like I was missing the sol, but there weren't any tee shots that really required a natural turnover line.

Tried to practice the altered x-step where I keep at least one eye on the target the whole time (but don't launch nearly as fast). Only used it on the lightweight buzzz really. Had okay luck at it.

Picked up a couple Inspires to try to find a leopard-like disc that I enjoy. Tried a hyzer flipped Inspire on a few tweener shots. Felt pretty good. Got one super nice hyzer flip forehand out of it on a super tight line. Felt better forehanding than a Leopard(3) for sure. Hopefully Axiom keeps that mold in production (although I imagine MVP has something fairly similar if I looked for it).

I don't really buy into the Gyro marketing; especially for drivers. Folks have shown that single mold drivers already put so much weight in the rim that the overmold doesn't change much. (Overmolded putters on the other hand do have pretty drastically different weight distribution). However, I'm really enjoying the overmolded understable drivers I have (Insanity and Inspire). They seem much more consistent in their flight, so perhaps that is an area where the whole Gyro nonsense helps. Or maybe I just get better angle control with the board flat proton cores.

I did pick up one KazeZ. It's understable enough still to be in that Leopard family, but does not sit well in my hand. I'll stick with the Inspires for now.

I also tried the trick of lining up my shots from the front of the teepad. That actually made a very large difference on the wooded course. I checked and I would have been off the largest gap by a noticeable amount lining everything up from the back of the teepad.

Lastly, I asked my wife for some form help (she has some kinesiology background). I've found I've had to reach back pretty high (higher than my maximum strength height) to get my backhand followthroughs to stay palm down (pushing the quarter off the table style) to get a proper nose down driver release. She quickly identified that I was raising my shoulder to raise my elbow, instead of rotating my humerus in the socket to raise my elbow and leaving the shoulder at its natural height. Need to get out to the field and see if I can get that kink worked out.

Happy 4th y'all!

 

[isamoor]

July was a fun month. Had a vacation up in Michigan and played a few nice courses up there. Dazzled my brothers with one nice roller. (I basically don't ever throw rollers, but this one hole begged for it.)

Haven't felt any need to change the stable/neutral core of my bag (envy/zone/buzzz/Teebird3/firebird/wraith). And I bag a mix of understable things when the course calls for it (proxy/sol/inspire/insanity).

I'm a little sad that the inspire seems so rare. I can use Leopard(3)s instead, but they just don't have the same hand feel. I suppose I should see if MVP has a more popular equivalent.

I do enjoy the one Volt I have quite a bit now. But it's so easy to stockpile Teebird3s, and I always feel confident off the tee with a Teebird3.

Lastly, I did pick up a couple 165-170g star Wraiths for my brother. I threw them some first. I definitely can make those work for some extra/easier distance. I should likely consider bagging that weight myself; I only really "earn" a 175g star wraith on a good day. I do still have a few important form issues to work out. So hopefully I can still get a few more MPH before age 40 hits. But I definitely see lighter weight wraiths in my future.

 

[isamoor]

Welp, found out the Inspire is rare because it's OOP. I went ahead and grabbed a couple Relays to try them, and they do work well enough. Flies like a flat-top leopard.

But after a few weeks of mixing different understable discs... I've decided that Leopard/Relay is almost just too fast of disc. If I throw them correctly they get out to 325-350'. Most of the time I needed something slower/shorter. I could do an understable mid... but I haven't found any that really agreed with me. I still do field work with Stalkers some, so I took them back on the course today. Had a very good round and used the Stalker on 4-5 teeshots. I felt in control with the Stalker and didn't feel silly shaping lines right around 300' with them. I can still forehand the Stalkers quite nicely as well.

I also backed off the Wraiths to cap out at Innova 9 speeds again. A Champ Viking or a GStar Thunderbird fly pretty similarly for me, and go *almost* as far as a Wraith. I'm also enjoying Star/GStar Valkyries again. I've decided I just don't like understable molds in champion plastic (e.g. champ leopard3s, valkyries). In some ways the plastic and the natural understability balance out, but in other ways they seem at war.

So at the moment I'm down to mostly: Envy/Zone/Buzzz/Stalker/Teebird3/Valkyrie/Thunderbird/Firebird.

I still like the Insanity a lot, but it's nice to have the Valk/Viking/Thunderbird/Firebird all feel almost identical in the hand...

 

[BuzzzChief]

Feel the same way about the Stalker, it's like throwing a long midrange. Very controllable. Teebird3 is a good compliment for more overstable duties.

 

[isamoor]

Not too much change in the last month:

I did decide there was just too much overlap in the Envy and Zones, so I'm currently rocking Banger-GTs instead of Envys. I also am carrying jawbreaker zones and z/zflx zones. They're far enough apart to be different.

Trying to work the MVP Relay instead of the Stalker. I like the feel of the Relays, but dang they take a while to beat in. If I'm throwing proper and get them near 350', they can show their full turn...

Got annoyed at the Thunderbirds again. Decided I'm more of a glide 4 fella for now (I'm sure that will change as I get older if not sooner).

So my core right now is:

BangerGT/Zone/Buzzz/Relay/Teebird3/Firebird/Valkyrie

 

[ray1970]

I did decide there was just too much overlap in the Envy and Zones, so I'm currently rocking Banger-GTs instead of Envys. I also am carrying jawbreaker zones and z/zflx zones. They're far enough apart to be different.

You might have to enlighten me on how you're using these discs just for my own education.

For me, Zones and Envy's are two different discs that do two different things so I'm curious how you found them to overlap in your bag.

Also, I found the Jawbreaker and Z-FLX Zones to be so similar that I couldn't justify bagging both and just went with the Z-FLX because I preferred the plastic more than Jawbreaker.

 

[isamoor]

Yea, I typed that up pretty quick quick and sloppy. I would specifically say that ~proton Envys and Jawbreaker Zones are modestly close. Especially once you beat in the Jawbreaker Zones a bit. They don't fly the same (Zone doesn't really glide) but they get to similar places.

And I think Jawbreaker and Z-FLX Zones do eventually separate quite a bit. Even with a few weeks (and maybe 10 round), my Jawbreaker Zones are much mellower than the Z-FLX Zones. I can do a very subtle anny forehand with the Jawbreaker Zones and they just go straight out to ~200'. I still need to flex the Z-FLX Zones to get them ~straight at the same distance. I definitely bag them both (or Jawbreaker+regular Z depending on the course).

I'm also liking the Jawbreaker Banger-GTs quite a bit. They have enough volume to them to fly like a classic putter (i.e. floaty and straight), but the grove helps it feel more like a mid in a fan grip. I bet you could beat an Electron Envy into a similar flight, but those are just now somewhat becoming available again. For now I'm using the same set of Jawbreaker BangerGTs off the tee and in the circle. We'll see how flippy they get by this winter.

 

[isamoor]

Played the last Tuesday evening league of the season here. Was cold enough I didn't bag the Valkyries. I could perhaps have shaved 1-2 strokes with Valks, but it was cold enough as dusk approached that I don't regret leaving them behind. It left me room for three different Teebird3s (in my small-ish bag), and I made good use of all of those.

So my "end of summer" bag did end up with:
Jawbreaker BangerGT
Jawbreaker and ZFlx Zone
Wide Variety of Buzzzes
Wide Variety of Teebird3s
Neutron MVP Relay
Star Firebird
(And a variety of Valks when I feel up to them.)


I'm consistently throwing the Relays and mellower Teebirds out to ~350' on the course. That's a nice feeling of accomplishment for the season, and gives me a chance for birdie on almost all local holes (not that I'm consistently birdie-ing them or anything). I'm hoping next summer will be the summer of ~375' comfortably with Valks (maybe even with some control...).

I could likely do Leopard(3)s instead of Relays, but those Relays are consistent and nice in the hand. They're also a small enough rim that the "GYRO effect" is almost noticeable. (The effect is biggest on slower discs; thus Envies are so magical. There's a cool Vortica article on the subject among others.) If I could get Volts as cheaply as Teebirds I might even switch to those as well. But for now I'll stick to the super-plentiful Teebird3s.

 

[isamoor]

Just a quick note mentioning how much I've been enjoying the Grip G-Series bag. I don't think it gets quite the attention it deserves. Likely because it is a rather expensive bag to only hold ~10 discs.

But it's light enough I never feel like I'm using any energy to port it around. It's very stable on the ground. The shaped shoulder flap keeps it very stable on my arm. The putters are very easy to work with. And I usually pull out and put away discs while it's on my shoulder without a problem at all.

I really only like the bag with 9 discs total. 2 putters up top, 2 in the middle pouch (zone and buzzz) and 5 drivers in the main compartment. I've tried other configurations and just don't like them.

It's also only okay at holding a water bottle. But the super nice towel pocket on the back is great.

My other main bags are the Upper Park Shift and Pinch. I actually use the Pinch more than the Shift. I have a chopped up corrugated plastic sign that I used to add some internal structure to the Pinch. It lets me do about 8-10 discs across 2/3s of the interior, then a slot for a big water bottle and towels. I put my putters in the front pouch. It's a little annoying to reach all the way to the ground for the putters, but the super light weight nature of the Pinch makes up for it. I can fit a retriver with attachments in one side pouch, and a mix of snacks and other things in the other (or more discs if I ever really need it). I also added some after-market sternum straps.

I've been eyeing a Voyager Slim. I really like the idea of ~4 discs sitting high with easy towel access. But the weight of the internal structure is scaring me off a bit.

I've also eyed the Lat64 Easy Go, but it mostly seems equivalent to my Shift. I do like my Shift, but I don't love how the water bottle sits, and the side pockets annoy me at times. (I removed the waist strap, but those pockets can still rub your arms as you walk.)

 

[isamoor]

It's gotten down to around freezing regularly around here. I've gotten in quite a few cold rounds.

My biggest issue right now is how fast the Jawbreaker Banger GTs are seasoning. I'm sure it's because I'm using them off the tee and banging a pile of trees. I'm loosing confidence in my approaches with them (not sure if they'll fade at 100' any more). I can still spin them straight for a putt.

I like carrying a small bag, and I don't like giving up room for putting putters and driving putters. And it's too cold for premium plastic putting putters for me.

I snagged a couple old school Aviars to try out. JK and Yetis for the softer plastic for the cold weather. I think I've finally accepted that I like the float of a deeper putter and that I'll deal with the grip. My hands are plenty large to actually use a lid. We'll see how the JK plastic seasons over a month or two. (I'm hoping it can handle driving and putting duties for a bit at least.)