Making things slower

[JR]

I've never held an ultimate lid. Have any of you played with ultimate lids? I've seen them hold height at amazingly low speeds compared to golf discs. If I've seen right many wide DG discs are higher than ultimate lids. Which might be a benefit for easy gripping lid vs DG disc.

Are lids slower than Whitler etc.? Is there a large difference? How do they handle wind and do they fade? I've seen some preftty straight flights out of them.

The reason I'm asking is to follow the logic of throwing discs that are as slow as possible to reach where you wanna go. Straightness is a plus in the tunnels around here especially with little fade if possible. Minimum speed is cool for not kicking far when they hit trees. Are there soft discs that absorp some of the speed by bending? How far can people throw lids without flipping them over? Do they require low speed high spin throws? Are all lids PDGA approved?

 

[jnecessary]

I'd like to know more about this as well.
I do believe lids fly based on spin rather than speed. I recently traded a Star Aero to an ultimate player for an avenger. A local guy told me that ultimate players would love an Aero because they are so large, similiar to lids, and I should let one throw my Aero that I wanted to trade.

I did and after one throw we went to his car where he popped his trunk and said "Here pick whatever you want, I really want this disc."
Just my 2cents, would like to hear from some Ultimate players.

 

[masterbeato]

I've thrown lids, they are way different and require smoother form and a lot of spin for them to work. I've seen ultimate players throw them about 300 straight for kick offs like in football they'll throw it across the field. Their run up and form is similar, but it requires more spin technique. You can throw them hard, but would require absolutely no off-axis torque. I'd say the longest you could throw them is about 300-310, to throw them on a bee-line it would be more like 230-270 range, If you have good technique to throw them. Some of them are good flyers though and if you turn it over a bit due to torque they will come back a little bit.

As for PDGA approval, I do believe if you look on the discraft site they do have PDGA approved lids.

 

[JR]

I've thrown lids, they are way different and require smoother form and a lot of spin for them to work. I've seen ultimate players throw them about 300 straight for kick offs like in football they'll throw it across the field. Their run up and form is similar, but it requires more spin technique. You can throw them hard, but would require absolutely no off-axis torque. I'd say the longest you could throw them is about 300-310, to throw them on a bee-line it would be more like 230-270 range, If you have good technique to throw them. Some of them are good flyers though and if you turn it over a bit due to torque they will come back a little bit.

As for PDGA approval, I do believe if you look on the discraft site they do have PDGA approved lids.

I've seen some lids in the approved disc list of PDGA.

No OAT to 300' with must have smooth form and heavy spin requirement sounds like a good training tool. And a nice approach disc or short driver for the same situations where one would use a putter for driving straight.

But are lids slower than putters? I'm gonna find out because I ordered one and I'm gonna get it today. Unfortunately it's gonna be after dark so I probably can't throw it at least for any distance.

 

[SkaBob]

I think at best lids are about as fast as some putters, slower than others. I know I've seen an ultrastar fly faster than a rattler or an APX, but I think it's probably about as fast as a challenger or banger...

 

[Fritz]

The only lids I know that is approved by the PDGA are the Discraft UltraStar and Innova Super Nova, you can almost consider the Zephyer, Jaguar, Lynx and Condor a lid cause of their size, but officially they aren't considered an ultimate disc. I think Discraft used to had a series of ultimate discs called the Skystar, but I believe those don't exist anymore. They were also approved.

I've witnessed people like John Bird PDGA #387 throw the Condor 375+ Feet He carries 5 different ones in his bag.

 

[wdb4th1]

I played ultimate for a long time before starting disc golf. And then we even used lids to play object disc golf. When playing ultimate I have to not throw as far to keep it inbounds on the pull. From the front of one endzone to the back of another is 270'. I have thrown one from the endzone of a football field through the uprights on the other side. 310'+

It takes a lot of finess to throw these. Its all about smooth release, angle and the right height.

Wind really messes with these discs.

I have a bunch lying around if anyone wants to trade for 1.

 

[JR]

I think at best lids are about as fast as some putters, slower than others. I know I've seen an ultrastar fly faster than a rattler or an APX, but I think it's probably about as fast as a challenger or banger...

The sports field near where I bought my 175 Discraft Ultra Star wasn't lit but ambient light close to the field allowed throwing. I was stiff from working and I definitely suffered from it. That's not an excuse I'm still not mr. finesse when it comes to throwing form. It seems that since I'm not perfect yet I need to tone down my afflictions as much as possible to see what I can gain. That means I will have to do something about my locked ribs that don't allow ful range of motion and natural loose relaxed throwing in the latter parts of the throw. I'm always awkward at around where the disc passes my chest and towards the hit. Throwing the Ultra Star really highlighted the difficulties much better than I've ever noticed before. It's a great diagnostic tool of throwing form.

I got one throw with steps as far as the longest stand still throws. That indicates how stiff I was today and how off my form was. I'm zombified from work. I wanna see what I can gain when I'm rested and not stiff like a... well stiff The longest throws were 200' but I kept hitting my mp3 player which kicked the disc into flipping over all too often. When I moved my hand farther away from my chest I avoided hitting the player and managed to throw some throws that were hyzer all the way. I had lousy snap because I was so stiff. Because I had no expectations I wasn't too anl about trying to throw with good snap so I didin't concentrate on it much. The few times I tried to snap and got for me good snap the disc flipped less. I still don't know the disc well enough to be able to throw it consistently hyzer flip to flat at all power levels to optimal apex heights. I got maybe 90 % successes with the limitations of being tired and stiff.

I was really surprised at the low speed needed to get the disc to go to 200'. I had to take a couple of iterations at taking off arm speed and increasing snap for best results. I ran and yanked really hard and usually got less distance than with for me unbelievably low sped and mild snap.

Compared to DG dics this baby glides like very few or none depending on which part of flight one looks at. The closest relative is Snap Whitler. I'd say that when throwing low and flat it does fade and does so more than the Whitler. It's realy easy to make the Ultra Star to fly annied to the ground. Much easier than the Whitler. So I'd say that the Ultra Star is less HSS and more LSS than the Whitler.

What I am disappointed about is the rate of falling compared to some lids I've seen thrown. I saw some 12x lids so having seen mixed sex teams I think I've seen lighter lids being thrown. The amount of snap really makes a difference here but even for me good level of snap leads to faster dropping than some DG discs at high speeds. Which really perplexes me because at low speeds this baby is insane. Totally crazy I tell you. I need to do shoot outs but from what I've seen only my Wizard 105 grams and Whitler can compete at height keeping ability at low speeds for normal putting ranges. I don't know at which range QMS and X Stratus, Z Putt'r and 150 S Wizard start to approach or match height keeping ability. For each of these discs the range is beyond typical putting range for all but the best putters.

I had heard that people who have used lids on wooded courses in one disc tournaments have shone in tunnels and bled hard at putts. Imagine my surprise having had less than stellar performance with drives being able to putt well. For any given putting distance I put less power in the throw than with any disc I've ever tried. Including 105 Wizard. I really don't seem to need to adjust aiming for height at all at normal putting ranges.

Ultra Star is wicked for throwing around bends at moderate to low apexes. It really moves far to the side whether it's hyzer or anhyzer. With anny being farther to the side. That can be poisonous or great depending on whether the large sideways movements were wanted or not. This baby really requires you to know your abilities and not exceed them. But that's not s simple as that. Even slight winds from front quarter can cause havoc quickly.

I used between 35-45 degrees of initial hyzer for flat flights depending on wind direction. Wind speed was slight to moderate.

I'm not so sure about the speed of the Ultra Star compared to the discs Skabob mentioned. I haven't thrown a Challenger or a Banger. My 17x glow APX is definitely faster than the Ultra Star for me. And I can put much more speed on the APX without flipping it over whereas I need to seriously limit speed on the Ultrastar or it'll flip up from 50+ degrees of initial hyzer. Tried that and succeeded. The Rattler and the Ultra Star are close. I've gotten some good rips inconsistently with the Rattler pushing the power. Those are around the same speed or faster than I can throw the Ultra Star without flipping it over more than 5 degrees from 50+ degrees of initial hyzer.

I need to try looser slow throws with the best snap I can produce. Didn't do those today. I think that Bradley's snap exercise would be ideal for this disc. This baby rally shows in the flight line whether you've succeeded in snapping hard or not.

 

[JR]

I played ultimate for a long time before starting disc golf. And then we even used lids to play object disc golf. When playing ultimate I have to not throw as far to keep it inbounds on the pull. From the front of one endzone to the back of another is 270'. I have thrown one from the endzone of a football field through the uprights on the other side. 310'+

It takes a lot of finess to throw these. Its all about smooth release, angle and the right height.

Wind really messes with these discs.

I have a bunch lying around if anyone wants to trade for 1.

310'+ is great! No wonder your avatar is a DG disc from a lid manufacturer

I'd appreciate any tips about grips and any pitfalls of trying to throw ultimate discs. Details I mean. You didn't mention nose angle. While my Ultra Star isn't the most nose sensitive disc it's not immune to nose up flight. I found one grip variation that allowed me to throw 25' high throws with nose flat. But this was my first day of trying out lids.

 

[wdb4th1]

Think about your midrange shots (think shark) You don't have to throw hard. Ultimate discs have tons of glide, use it to your advantage (if you can, tunnel shots are tough). When throwing backhand put 4 fingers on the rim, and don't push too hard with your thumb. Throwing forehand (my throw of choice for accuracy and those full field tosses into the wind that never get caught and you can't get upset because its like 100 degrees outside and there is no shade and your team is still playing really well... sorry for the rant... stupid Nashville)

Anyway the grip for forehand shots is loose. Watch the discraft video on forehands. That is pretty much how i hold mu ultimate disc.

In ultimate you can be forced to throw a disc with a high release. This will keep the disc flat and get it up higher but you sacrifice distance.

But for distance, I take my backhand grip, do 1 full spin (sometimes i will do a few summersaults and 3-4 spins if I have been drinking) and release with a hyzer. You don't want the disc to flip to flat until very late in the flight you want it to gain as much height as it can.

The angle of the throw you need will depend on how tight your grip is and how hard you are throwing.

I have always taken a non-traditional throwing style in ultimate, which leaves my teammates to teach the new kids how to throw because apperenty (to quote my friend Miles) "You throw wrong... but it works!"

 

[JR]

Thanks for the tips.

Regarding midrange throws I'm just getting back to using mids. Used to go from Wiz to Teebird. I bought an FLX Buzzz yesterday. Got one throw to 315' on a high line drive with a good speedy run up. The nose was flat or a degree up. It may be a touch understable for me on longer throws. I didn't like how my Sirius Sentinel MF would flip in the wind for 300' and still be LSS enough to be unusable in tunnels. I'd say I'm heavily leaning on speed not glide with mids now. New DX Roc is a bit too understable for me for full speed throws. So to think Shark is a bit of a mystery to me because I seem to have always outpowered my form and reached for too much D with mids just like my Wizard.

The Wizard thing is a double edged sword when it works it's fine. But use a too understable disc for hard long rips and statistics show that I'm getting worse results scorewise than with control drivers and especially mids.

I'd say that for tunnels the Ultra Star seems to be great on low throws because it won't fade unless it has nose up. It's just too demanding for me at least on an off day to get reliable non flipping over throw with it to go far. Yesterday my comfort zone seemed to end fairly quickly after 150' which still makes it a good approach disc. Airbounces should be tremendous

For heavy chains, and especially frozen and covered with ice, I think that an Ultrastar might bounce out. I had to change to putting discs with sharp edges last winter after the course that caters best for winter time play for me had an eight of an inch ice cover on heavy chains. They were almost solid so soft discs(especially thick round ones) would easily bounce back like they would have hit a wall. This doesn't deter me from trying it as a putter now

I take it that you need less initial hyzer if you grip tighter like with DG discs.

Forehand to my comfort zone for accuracy seems like a great idea because the lack of fade helps in keeping in the fairway in tunnels aplenty around here. And there's never too much accuracy in tunnels. The Ultra Star might have solved calm day tunnels problems for approach distances and some getting out of trouble situations for me. I'm already glad that I bought one.

Getting greedy again I'll have to go through the list of PDGA approved lids to see if there are lighter lids for more D. If they don't teach me finesse I don't know what will :-D Outside of electrocutions or an armed guard for punishing me for bad throws that is. In the meantime I have a lot of work with an Ultra Star because that requires a lot of improvement from yesterday. Goody as well as irritating. That's DG for you isn't it?

Edit: Throwing as high as possible makes absolute sense to me since it drops fairly quickly. Quite close to many DG discs. The wideness considered it drops surprisingly quickly in the latter part of the flight. The highest 200' throws I threw were around 25' high I think but mostly in 18'-20' range.

How high a typical 230' or 310' line drive would fly at the apex?

Think about your midrange shots (think shark) You don't have to throw hard. Ultimate discs have tons of glide, use it to your advantage (if you can, tunnel shots are tough). When throwing backhand put 4 fingers on the rim, and don't push too hard with your thumb. Throwing forehand (my throw of choice for accuracy and those full field tosses into the wind that never get caught and you can't get upset because its like 100 degrees outside and there is no shade and your team is still playing really well... sorry for the rant... stupid Nashville)

Anyway the grip for forehand shots is loose. Watch the discraft video on forehands. That is pretty much how i hold mu ultimate disc.

In ultimate you can be forced to throw a disc with a high release. This will keep the disc flat and get it up higher but you sacrifice distance.

But for distance, I take my backhand grip, do 1 full spin (sometimes i will do a few summersaults and 3-4 spins if I have been drinking) and release with a hyzer. You don't want the disc to flip to flat until very late in the flight you want it to gain as much height as it can.

The angle of the throw you need will depend on how tight your grip is and how hard you are throwing.

I have always taken a non-traditional throwing style in ultimate, which leaves my teammates to teach the new kids how to throw because apperenty (to quote my friend Miles) "You throw wrong... but it works!"

 

[rehder]

New DX Roc is a bit too understable for me for full speed throws

JR we have talked about this already. If these are around 170g or higher, they should not be understable by any means. Especially if they are ranchos. I have few windiscs. The predator I throw into a wind and my newer rocs. They are the only discs that will handle heavy winds.

And the reason is that they are so stable. If you are turning over new rocs, im betting its due to OAT

 

[Hoey1]

I think Discraft used to had a series of ultimate discs called the Skystar, but I believe those don't exist anymore.

just because I thought I saw them in the store.
http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/proddetail.asp?prod=skystyler

The Birdie is also a nice disc for players tranistioning from ultimate to dg.


Now I haven't been on here too much recently... but :lol:

JR, are you writing a book for disc reviews? How many discs would you say you've demo'd this year?
wow really?
damn.

I recently just pulled my star aviar out of the reserve list. I thought I was wizard for life, but I'm a big believer in the no-bead now. Just thought I'd share that, it's a slow predictable disc... for my particular throwing style.

 

[garublador1]

The Ultra-Star is a good disc to learn to throw with, but I don't see it being very useful on the DG course. While it is easy to throw, it's not nearly as reliable as a stable putter (Wizard, Aviar, Challenger, Magnet, Banger, etc.) and it doesn't stick in the chains nearly as well.

If you aren't familiar with them, I'd recommend approaching with an Ultra-Star for a while just to see what you can do. After you get good with that, transition to a stable putter. While there will be some shots that aren't as easy, anhyzers mostly, there will be some shots that are much easier and more reliable, mostly hyzers and 'S' curves.

I've honestly never measured my distance with an Ultra-Star. I played a lot of ultimate in high school and some in college, but we never really had distances marked. I've never tried to throw one with anything but some sort of control grip and I've never thrown one with a consious effort to control nose angle or of my technique. Most of what I was doing was by "feel" which may be why approaching and driving with putters under 200' came easy for me. Eliminateing OAT when throwing lids is key.

 

[JR]

New DX Roc is a bit too understable for me for full speed throws

JR we have talked about this already. If these are around 170g or higher, they should not be understable by any means. Especially if they are ranchos. I have few windiscs. The predator I throw into a wind and my newer rocs. They are the only discs that will handle heavy winds.

And the reason is that they are so stable. If you are turning over new rocs, im betting its due to OAT

I know and I've identified two things that lead to it and tow things I have to watch out for to avoid it. It's just a matter of remembering to watch out for the troubles.

I really like the Z Putt'r I got two days ago. It's a very fine disc. The easiest grip ever for a putter slightly better than my Radius. Very grippy plastic especially for Z. Slides too much on the ground for putts for my liking but is great for approaches that aren't meant to go in but need to avoid ceilings by moving on the ground. Drops a little too fast for my taste when compared against Rattler and Whitler. I actually like it better for short drives and approach throws than for putting. I'd say that it's in top four among putters even for putting and even nicer for approaches although there are more competitors for that role. Considering wind handling it rises in position on windy days for putting. I still prefer the Whitler flight overall. It's just very demanding for my poor hand to grip.

Thanks for practically twisting my arm to getting this disc

 

[JR]

I think Discraft used to had a series of ultimate discs called the Skystar, but I believe those don't exist anymore.

just because I thought I saw them in the store.
http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/proddetail.asp?prod=skystyler

The Birdie is also a nice disc for players tranistioning from ultimate to dg.


Now I haven't been on here too much recently... but :lol:

JR, are you writing a book for disc reviews? How many discs would you say you've demo'd this year?
wow really?
damn.

I recently just pulled my star aviar out of the reserve list. I thought I was wizard for life, but I'm a big believer in the no-bead now. Just thought I'd share that, it's a slow predictable disc... for my particular throwing style.

I really prefer the Radius over the Wizard for putting because it is not so tall and is easier to grip. Mine is driver plastic but it still is much grippier than my Wizards. I don't have very soft Wizards. Don't think that for my hand the shape is the best and it's too LSS even when broken in for my style and prefeernce compared to some putters.

I learnt here that the disc review section and the JFC are a good start but not as comprehensive and helpful as the detailed reviews people(other than me) give here on the forum. So I cross check all three resources. PDGA forums too although usually they aren't that helpful unless it's the designer of the disc writing. That's why I try to put detail into my reviews because I've certainly gotten a lot of help from here for deciding which discs to try. Actually I've gotten ideas of new to me flight lines that are possible for some discs with proper form. So I've learnt to throw better thanks to disc reviews! Never would've imagined that. So no books in print coming up. Why would there be, it's all here on the forums after all

I've donated discs so can't say exactly how many discs I've had so I can't count how many I have to have an idea of how many discs I've tried this year for the first time. I estimate over two dozen maybe even around three dozen. I already had around a dozen discs before joining the forums. So I think I've probably written about each disc that I've owned and tried except some of the newest batch which is around 50 discs in less molds I think. Less molds because I've tried different plastics and weights of the same mold. Which btw. is misleading. I love my new Star Starfire except the skipping but find my Champ Starfire to be too little HSS. My Champ 12x Teebird is very different in shape to my dx TBs for example.

The reason for many discs for me is to learn new flight lines and to see what is possible, how good I'm with each disc for each flight line to aid disc selection and planning and to see how few discs in the bag can achieve all necessary flight lines now that I've learnt to throw most types of throws in their crude basic form. I want to have a good(not comprehensive) picture of what kind of discs are out there and what can be done with them, how accurately and consistently I can throw them and how easy and forgiving the discs are for which shots. This way I learn to select a proper disc and proper flight line for each situation better. I also need to know how discs wear and change in different plastics for key molds.

I've not locked down my bag and can't yet but I'm probably not missing too many crucial disc try outs any more. For making up my mind about which discs I should start to train intensively and exclusively with. I hope to have enough disc, flight line and shot and disc selection knowledge so that I could build a permanent and comprehensive and minimalist enough bag before next summer.

I hope to be able to improve my consistency after that throwing just those discs that I'm most intimately familiar with and have recent experience with those so that I'm in the groove with them. The underlying reason is to have the only variable in throwing to be my form. So that I can hone that without interference from making mistakes with disc selection and remembering wrong how they need to be thrown for each situation.

To me each degree in nose angle and hyzer/anhyzer off of my planned throw is very troublesome. Because in local tunnels there is so little margin of error. Happily I've gotten a great many better discs than before for most situations this year. And learnt a lot about disc selection for specific holes and flight lines. So I'm confident about being able to get a good enough bag selection by spring.

 

[JR]

I find the ease of throwing the Ultra-Star to be two fold. It is really easy at short ranges and real difficult on long distance throws. That's why I totally get it why you say it's not as reliable as DG discs. For laughs I threw a couple throws at baskets today. Power grip is the most consistent grip for me but is difficult for putting. No great results yet but promising flight lines. As long as there's no wind. It's amazing how little wind deviates this enough to miss.

The chains on the course I played are too heavy but they caught the disc well. Probably not when they freeze. It's really good as an approach disc. I've got plenty of experience of Wizards as drivers, approaches and putter. Other putters too for driving. S curves are easy. After all I'm a disc golfer trying to transition to be able to throw a lid as well. So I have a lot of DG experience and precious little skill and practice with lids.

OAT definitely kills me at times with DG discs. I can eliminate it when I pre plan thoroughly and concentrate on clean execution of a throw. Much more difficult and less success with trying to push the lid far.

The Ultra-Star is a good disc to learn to throw with, but I don't see it being very useful on the DG course. While it is easy to throw, it's not nearly as reliable as a stable putter (Wizard, Aviar, Challenger, Magnet, Banger, etc.) and it doesn't stick in the chains nearly as well.

If you aren't familiar with them, I'd recommend approaching with an Ultra-Star for a while just to see what you can do. After you get good with that, transition to a stable putter. While there will be some shots that aren't as easy, anhyzers mostly, there will be some shots that are much easier and more reliable, mostly hyzers and 'S' curves.

I've honestly never measured my distance with an Ultra-Star. I played a lot of ultimate in high school and some in college, but we never really had distances marked. I've never tried to throw one with anything but some sort of control grip and I've never thrown one with a consious effort to control nose angle or of my technique. Most of what I was doing was by "feel" which may be why approaching and driving with putters under 200' came easy for me. Eliminateing OAT when throwing lids is key.

 

[ambiguous]

Keep throwing the ultrastar and you'll notice your troubles with wind slowly go away. I'm one of probably few people on this forum that play ultimate much more than dg. The ultrastar taught me more about proper disc orientation in the wind than anything I've encountered in dg. I'm a captain of my college's team and do 100% of our pulls at tournaments, and I've decided that wind with an ultrastar can almost always be your friend. For example, the 3 longest ultrastar throws of my life went 340, 360, and another 360. The 2 longest were in a tailwind, but I did hit 340 in a somewhat moderate headwind. Its all nose angles and spin. A ton of snap nose up gives you a throw that can hang in the air for what seems like forever, or give it nose down and height and be surprised at how far the disc will keep penetrating.

Throwing an ultrastar full power in all wind conditions has improved my dg game in the wind so much more than any golf disc could. I think its great you're using it, I was actually just considering throwing mine in the dg bag.[/i]

 

[JR]

Keep throwing the ultrastar and you'll notice your troubles with wind slowly go away. I'm one of probably few people on this forum that play ultimate much more than dg. The ultrastar taught me more about proper disc orientation in the wind than anything I've encountered in dg. I'm a captain of my college's team and do 100% of our pulls at tournaments, and I've decided that wind with an ultrastar can almost always be your friend. For example, the 3 longest ultrastar throws of my life went 340, 360, and another 360. The 2 longest were in a tailwind, but I did hit 340 in a somewhat moderate headwind. Its all nose angles and spin. A ton of snap nose up gives you a throw that can hang in the air for what seems like forever, or give it nose down and height and be surprised at how far the disc will keep penetrating.

Throwing an ultrastar full power in all wind conditions has improved my dg game in the wind so much more than any golf disc could. I think its great you're using it, I was actually just considering throwing mine in the dg bag.[/i]

Very respectable distance. Do you know how far the longest ultimate players throw Ultra-Stars? I'ev had trouble getting good nose down but I haven't tweaked my grip fully yet. I definitely see why high nose down hyzer flip to flat throws could go that far once the form is good enough. It's just a lot more tricky than with any DG disc except the Whitler. Not surprisingly they are closest discs in shape when comparing DG discs to the Ultra-Star. The wind bit is inspiring because if one can learn that much control with such a slow and glidey disc to be able to turn a disadvantage into an advantage it could yield great results in DG. Actually I am good in headwinds in DG with proper discs but Having such control with an UIltra-Star would probably benefit each DG disc in the wind. Very humbling to know that it can be done. Mad skillz!

I tried to put at my couch with a power grip without much success but when I moved my index finger on the lowest part of the leading edge (control grip is this?) I had great results when squeezing with fingers at maybe 50 % power and using a short motion of about a foot starting slowly ending quickly. Not linear acceleration but heavy(80 % or thereabouts of maximum) acceleration in the end. Bending the wrist back a lot trying to stop my wrist to handshaking position. Given the power used and flight speed for that distance only a 105 Wizard comes close to height preservation. The Rattler was definitely a bit worse and the Whitler between the Rattler and the 105 Wiz IIRC. Intriguing and I'll have to try it on the course :-D

 

[ambiguous]

I'm not sure exactly how far the best guys in ultimate are throwing. I do know that my average pull in a situation without any wind is going to be around 260-275, and for all the college teams I've played against and seen play, that seems to be towards the high end of the spectrum. I'm not sure about the open guys, though, but I'm sure plenty of them have me beat.