[Gateway] Medium Wizards No Longer PDGA Legal?

[Fishy]

That's half right. They do come out faster, but that is the top speed unless it's some weird scenario where the disc ends up falling really far rather than flying. People using radar guns have consistently confirmed this and the out of the hand speed record has always been with a narrow rimmed disc, more specifically a GUTS lid.

It makes sense if you think about it in terms of human anatomy rather than aerodynamics. Aerodynamics will have a very limited effect right out of the hand. Grip strength will have a direct effect on the initial speed and you get a stronger grip on a narrower rim. Just gripping a putter and a high speed driver and then trying to pull them out of your hand will confirm this.

While it's true that slower discs actually do have a higher top speed, and I understand that listing that was more of an FYI than something relevant to the rule, my guess is the real danger they're trying to mitigate with the rule isn't people getting hit at point blank range. Hitting someone halfway down the fairway when wider rimmed discs are flying faster is probably a much bigger concern.

so you have to factor in grip strength and rim depth? that makes more sense than simply saying someone on DGR said so, and they had a radar gun. :thmbup:

 

[Colt]

Got the last batch of 175ish M Wiz from Marshall street being the Wiz fanatic I am, think when they remake them, legal ones, they will be close to the same?

 

[dx_roc]

ftr, it was the G9i's that caused this and they are really more like old Firm plastic than Medium.

 

[tbird888]

I have current tooled Mediums that are firmer than all 20 of my G9i's. They just don't have the same wonderful grippiness to them.

 

[Dan H.]

OP - *too firm - FTFY

 

[bradharris]

You can drive with a putter ir a driver. Go check any given"hole of the day" thread, see how many people drive with Wizards, Pures and Anodes.

A stiff disc is a stiff disc. A gummy putter will hurt less than a firm one, a stiff driver could cause some damage too. Honestly, there's not going to be a lot of difference between a stiff 175g Destroyer or a stiff 175g Wizard braining you on a full power throw. Force=mass*velocity. The impact area will be smaller with the driver, but I just don't see how any plastic disc is going to penetrate a skull. So we're talking about blunt force trauma once the disc impacts the head, regardless of wing profile. At that point, mass is mass, and it's the force of imapct that's going to be causing the injury.

The only saving grace is that if you hit someone full on in the head with CE on a cold day, there's a chance it'll shatter, absorbing some force ala "crumple zones" in a car.
In terms of safety, I don't see a need for a sliding scale of firmness based on wing shape.

I agree with you somewhat. I'm fine with one firmness standard as well, I'm simply proposing an alternative that might satisfy the "I must have the hardest putter I can find" crowd.

However, the blunt nose will not cause as much damage. And by damage I'm not talking about anything severe, I'm talking about potential skin breaking and bruising. Because the impact is more spread with a blunt nose, the chance for lacerations or contusions is lessened.

Go grab a disc, hit yourself in the chest with the rim, and then turn it flat to hit yourself with the flight plate. You're saying they'll feel the same?

 

[Halcón]

I'll take a Medium Wizard hitting me over a 12X Firebird any day of the week. But of course they're not going to ban those.

Have you been hit by both? I've never seen someone take a putter to the face and have it split their nose open after it had flown 300', but I have seen it happen with a driver.

Yea, like I said, I'd rather be hit by the putter.

 

[archon21]

"
Also, Putter should have a different flexibility rule. They should be allowed to be stiffer because they are simply far less dangerous than any driver out there, even the FLX super flexible one.
Sure, I do drive with my G9i Wizard, and they are stiff as thick board of wood. However, even on a full drive (250), they don't travel very fast but for the first few meters. This is my point. Putter don't go very fast and are therefore less dangerous.

Also, putters are all about feel. I don't know of any player that plays with a putter that doesn't feel good in his hands. To change from a stiff putter to a soft one is quite a big difference, even in the same mold, a much bigger difference than switching to a driver in softer plastic. The adjustment is far more complicated with the putters in my opinion.

my two cents.

^ I had a similar thought. If people I could potentially hit are within 250 ft, I could easily see or hear them. Most of the holes I throw putters for drives on are holes where I can see the basket from the teepad. Even if other players are relatively close on a course(like 2 or so holes ahead or behind) you can hear them putting and hitting chains. And if you're unsure about a hole where you can't see the basket, you can shout 'CLEAR ON (whatever hole)!?' And get a response. Normally I'll only shout like that on practice rounds and not league or tournament rounds. But still within a driving putters range you should be able to hear or see people. That was my thought on this matter.

 

[goosefraba1]

I would be willing to bet that a driver gives a much higher pounds per square inch reading than a putter. A math guru would better explain this than me.... but say a putter and a driver are both travelling at say 10mph.... once they hit the same object (a device to measure lb/in2), the putter will push 175g over an area of about 4inche squared (I'm guessing here because of the blunt rim)..... the driver will push 175g over an area of about 1/2 inch squared. So.... the putter would hit near 8 times less force than driver if given a constant rate (with my rudimentary math on a phone).

Note- the area measured is the contact area where the nose hits the object.

It would be sweet if somebody could actually test this at pdga.... my physics skills/math skills I know are not up to par.

 

[tbird888]

Yea, like I said, I'd rather be hit by the putter.

I was replying to GrungeDude's comments, but me too!

As for the discussion, I've been hit by a Firm X-Link Ridge off the tee thrown by a guy with 400' of power and a KC Pro Whippet on a dinky throw from the last pin to the next tee (not even 100') at the end of its flight. I'll take the Ridge any day.

 

[Dr.Disc]

I know a guy who had to get stiches from a champion driver I would imagine he would've preffered a wizard to his head.

I would think if its a safety thing they would crack down on these super sharp edges on high speed drivers

 

[garublador]

You are reading it wrong. During sanctioned play, anybody can call you on your disc being too firm. When called out, you are no longer allowed to throw the disc until the TD can rule whether or not it meets all technical standards (mold, weight, flex). If it doesn't meet one or more of the technical standards, it is not a legal disc and you will be penalized.

Chances of being called out are slim. Chances of the TD being properly equipped to make the call is slim to none.

So all I'd have to do is call out all other competitors discs at a tournament and they wouldn't be able to use any of them until the TD got a certified and calibrated flex tester?

I am late to the party, but I hear there is a lot of talk about 175 wizards being illegal.
THAT IS NOT TOTALLY TRUE. a 174.2 wizard may be marked as a 175 and is still legal.

Correct. There is no limit set to what a disc can be marked. There is only a limit to what the disc can actually weigh. You can't know what a disc weighs without a calibrated and certified scale. Some cheapie you got off eBay that's used to weigh foods or mail doesn't count. Really you'd need calibrated and certified calipers as well to get the actual diameter of the disc.

I don't think there are many TD's willing to spend the money on that type of equipment, and they shouldn't have to. Even though the PDGA doesn't want to be the one to have to deal with it, it really is their responsibility, not the player's and TD's.

 

[Toro71]

show me the source. and again it's irrelevant to a practical application of common sense.

Actually the way physics work (as I understand it) wind resistance and gravity immediately start working against any travelling body causing it to slow down so therefore the top speed of anything is as soon as it looses it's method of acceleration. A bullet starts to slow down after it leaves the barrel, some more dramatically than others (difference between a .45 and .223). So to say that something gets faster after time seems somewhere between unlikely and absurd. At the peak of the apex of flight when it starts to decend towards the ground it might again start to accelerate but only because of gravity.

I think the speeds in question are probably close enough to each other (just guessing) that the nose shape is the more important factor.

The fact is that if you're hit by a Rhyno and a Destroyer, even if the Destoryer is travelling at even a moderately slower speed, the force of the impact is concentrated in a much smaller area. You used saw blade and baseball. I'd use getting hit with a hammer. The blunt end of the hammer is a Rhyno, the claw-end is a destroyer.

That being said, getting hit in the head hard enough with either end of the hammer can f*%$ you up pretty good.

 

[MrFixIt]

Safety should be #1 priority in any sport or business to the point they error on the side of caution.
I like the PDGA's reply.

I agree w/ this statement.
:thmbup:

 

[garublador]

so you have to factor in grip strength and rim depth? that makes more sense than simply saying someone on DGR said so, and they had a radar gun. :thmbup:

That's the thing with the DGR tests. Grip strength and technique were constant because it's the same person. The only thing that changed was the rim width. Multiple people confirmed that narrower rimmed discs consistently came out of the hand faster than wider rimmed discs.

 

[Halcón]

All this math is fine and dandy, but where's the common sense? They're not going to ban drivers. They're not going to pick on Innova. "Let's make Dave's putters the target of our ridiculous ruling, that's much easier."

To say that this was done as a saftey issue, and to have a putter banned FIRST is a mockery of our intelligence, and our game.

 

[Grungedude42]

I would be willing to bet that a driver gives a much higher pounds per square inch reading than a putter. A math guru would better explain this than me.... but say a putter and a driver are both travelling at say 10mph.... once they hit the same object (a device to measure lb/in2), the putter will push 175g over an area of about 4inche squared (I'm guessing here because of the blunt rim)..... the driver will push 175g over an area of about 1/2 inch squared. So.... the putter would hit near 8 times less force than driver if given a constant rate (with my rudimentary math on a phone).

Note- the area measured is the contact area where the nose hits the object.

This is almost correct. But, if the driver still cannot fracture the skull, the only damage to the brain will be the force of the skull pushing in, due to the impact by the disc. Surface area of impact doesn't matter at that point. A driver and a putter hit with the same force, as long as weight and velocity is consistent. I was incorrect above. F=m*a, not F=m*v. But, either way, you're describing pressure, not force. A driver impacin your scenario brings 8x the pressure of a putter hit, not force.

No one's going to die from soft tissue damage from a disc hit, unless they're anemic. Head woulds bleed a lot, and they're gnarly, but you're not going to die from a disc like you could a golf ball.

 

[Plankeye]

This is almost correct. But, if the driver still cannot fracture the skull, the only damage to the brain will be the force of the skull pushing in, due to the impact by the disc. Surface area of impact doesn't matter at that point. A driver and a putter hit with the same force, as long as weight and velocity is consistent. I was incorrect above. F=m*a, not F=m*v. But, either way, you're describing pressure, not force. A driver impacin your scenario brings 8x the pressure of a putter hit, not force.

No one's going to die from soft tissue damage from a disc hit, unless they're anemic. Head woulds bleed a lot, and they're gnarly, but you're not going to die from a disc like you could a golf ball.

Pressure = Force/Area

 

[bradharris]

All this math is fine and dandy, but where's the common sense? They're not going to ban drivers. They're not going to pick on Innova. "Let's make Dave's putters the target of our ridiculous ruling, that's much easier."

To say that this was done as a saftey issue, and to have a putter banned FIRST is a mockery of our intelligence, and our game.

Ah, so it's just one big conspiracy against Gateway.

The PDGA isn't trying to make a point, or send a message by picking on the little guy. They found putters that were too stiff and told Gateway to make adjustments. If you find any Innova drivers that you think will fail the flex test, let the PDGA know.

 

[IDGC_SUPER]

I will say this one more time, it is the G9i plastic that was questioned NOT MEDIUM.

Lots of information in this thread is incorrect, don't believe everything you read.