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[Gateway] Medium Wizards No Longer PDGA Legal?

I even read somewhere that a radar gun study shows that putters actually tend to fly faster right out of the hand than drivers do. So in theory, a putter can cause as much, if not more damage at close range.

bull****.. I'll take a full force drive from anyone with a putter and maybe if it's super stiff it'll leave a deep bruise.

Cite your source for this or STFU about it. Anyone can "read" something, but you need to produce your source or it's just an opinion. Also a blunt edge is not going to cause as much damage as a sharp one.

Also if it's a one time throw it isn't scientific and is still just bull****. Maybe 30 throws from KC with both and it'll be evidence. But it still won't cause the same damage as a driver. Would be the difference of a saw blade vs a baseball.
 
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From the sounds of the email, it is not up to players or TDs to decide that a disc is too stiff for play. It's a quality control issue where, if a manufacturer puts a disc out (in a legal mold), then it's legal for play. If they routinely produce discs that are too stiff, the PDGA may take action against them.

That is not how I read it.
 
bull****.. I'll take a full force drive from anyone with a putter and maybe if it's super stiff it'll leave a deep bruise.

Cite your source for this or STFU about it. Anyone can "read" something, but you need to produce your source or it's just an opinion. Also a blunt edge is not going to cause as much damage as a sharp one.

fishy, he is right. I remember this same article. Putter comes out faster, but does not hit the same top speed.
 
bull****.. I'll take a full force drive from anyone with a putter and maybe if it's super stiff it'll leave a deep bruise.

Cite your source for this or STFU about it. Anyone can "read" something, but you need to produce your source or it's just an opinion. Also a blunt edge is not going to cause as much damage as a sharp one.

The blunt edge does make a big difference, more so probably than speed.

I'll see what I can find, I'm pretty sure it's somewhere buried in the depths of DGCR. And everything said here is truth right...?
 
I even read somewhere that a radar gun study shows that putters actually tend to fly faster right out of the hand than drivers do. So in theory, a putter can cause as much, if not more damage at close range.

I'd like to read that source.

As for the discussion, I've been hit by a Firm X-Link Ridge off the tee thrown by a guy with 400' of power and a KC Pro Whippet on a dinky throw from the last pin to the next tee (not even 100') at the end of its flight. I'll take the Ridge any day.
 
Here's one source

Something that's interesting to note is that wider rimmed discs tend to come out of your hand slower than narrower rimmed discs. Bradley Walker at DGR used a radar gun to show this and his Rocs had a consistently faster initial speed than his Destroyers. He verified it with another member who was throwing the fastest with Rhynos.
 
Are you going to post it here or start another new thread for Dave's response?

Or maybe start a thread about a reply that was already posted here by another member...
I asked Jeff about the news and received this reply:

I'm copying an email that I wrote earlier this morning, as it addresses the issues that you raise.

"Stiff discs have been a sticky issue for manufacturers and the PDGA alike since the standard was instituted in 1994. The flexibility standard aims to reduce the risk of injury to both disc golfers and others who might be hit. Unfortunately, the PDGA can't test discs from every run and variant, so we largely depend on the cooperation of manufacturers. About five or six years ago I tested several hundred discs made by different manufacturers and found that nearly 10% failed the flexibility standard. I've worked with manufacturers over the years to urge them to comply with the standard and I'm willing to test any discs that may be too stiff. There has been some cooperation, but some manufacturers continue to produce discs that are too stiff, some intentionally in my opinion. It is important to note that the PDGA considered eliminating the flexibility standard several years ago, but the results of a PDGA poll indicated that disc golfers overwhelmingly supported keeping the flexibility standard, and so this standard remains.

Of course, we still have a problem, because TD's and PDGA officials lack the equipment and expertise to test discs at tournaments. The flexibility of discs sold at the IDGC are spot-checked. I was alerted by the IDGC that some Wizards appeared too stiff and so I tested some samples and found that that was indeed the case. I contacted Gateway and they agreed to be more diligent in their quality control to produce discs that will meet the standard.

I agree with you that stiff putters pose less of a risk than stiff drivers and so the PDGA may consider different flexibility standards for different classes of discs. Still, some people drive with putters on some holes and so that isn't as straight forward of a solution as you might think. To me, the best solution, so long as the flexibility standard is kept, is for manufacturers to do the necessary quality control. The PDGA can assess penalties for failure to do so, but we prefer to avoid that if at all possible.

I know that you can't test discs that you purchase, but as a rule of thumb, if it is difficult to flex a disc held in your hand (at temperatures in the 70s), then it is probably too stiff to meet the PDGA standard."

This is another email that I wrote this morning:

"I must say that no one is singling out Gateway. I will test any discs by any manufacturer so long as they are supplied to me. I will then follow up with any manufacturer that clearly violates the standard, especially for the most egregious cases. FYI, I have full-time job (really, my job as an archaeologist/soil scientist is more than full-time!), so I can't serve as the "disc golf police". But I do deal with flexibility issues that I am alerted to."

Jeff Homburg (#1025)
 
so putters can fly faster at first...

a thin rimmed driver still hurts more. i've been hit by both.
 
Holy hell, someone drives with a putter? and that makes them dangerous? ;) Pretty sure all of us would rather get hit with a stiff putter over a driver. I'm think a revision of their guidelines needs to rule out putters. I'm also thinking the worst that can happen is a nasty bruise from someone driving a putter compared to serious laceration. I understand that no one wants people throwing saw blades around, but we really need to apply some common sense to the sport.

Yeaaaa, leaving decisions in the hand of people on the basis of common sense is not realistic. I might be cynical, but if everyone would just do the right thing, we would not need rules.
 
fishy, he is right. I remember this same article. Putter comes out faster, but does not hit the same top speed.

show me the source. and again it's irrelevant to a practical application of common sense.

Actually the way physics work (as I understand it) wind resistance and gravity immediately start working against any travelling body causing it to slow down so therefore the top speed of anything is as soon as it looses it's method of acceleration. A bullet starts to slow down after it leaves the barrel, some more dramatically than others (difference between a .45 and .223). So to say that something gets faster after time seems somewhere between unlikely and absurd. At the peak of the apex of flight when it starts to decend towards the ground it might again start to accelerate but only because of gravity.
 
I don't see this much differently than the initial PDGA approval of new discs. There are specific guidelines to the approval process and I am sure at some point the PDGA has declined approval for variances. It is the manufacturer job to continue production within the standards. Sounds like Gateway was given warnings before action. I liked the response from PDGA.
 
Here's one source

2 people does not make a scientific study. get a machine that can throw at exactly the same rate everytime and go with that. it's just 2 people with a radar gun.

you cited DGR as a source? really. Not even worth the time it takes to laugh at that.
 
this really could have gone in the wizard thread, but Jrawk and I talked about this issue last night.

If someone claimed that another person's disc was to stiff at one of our tourneys, how would we test it? Most TD's (including myself) can not determine if a disc is illegal by feel. We can say, "damn that is a stiff disc" but we do not carry tools that measure flexability.

I think that's why the PDGA is going after the manufacturers on this. If companies make discs that all comply with the flex raiting there will be no issues for TD's.
 
so putters can fly faster at first...

a thin rimmed driver still hurts more. i've been hit by both.

True, a blunt nose will distribute the force more.

But there's still the problem that the PDGA does not classify discs by use. So saying putters are exempt is meaningless.

Perhaps a varying flex standard based on the disc profile rating makes more sense?
 
2 people does not make a scientific study. get a machine that can throw at exactly the same rate everytime and go with that. it's just 2 people with a radar gun.

you cited DGR as a source? really. Not even worth the time it takes to laugh at that.

And saying "I've been hit by putters, it don't hurt" is a more scientific study?
 
fishy, he is right. I remember this same article. Putter comes out faster, but does not hit the same top speed.
That's half right. They do come out faster, but that is the top speed unless it's some weird scenario where the disc ends up falling really far rather than flying. People using radar guns have consistently confirmed this and the out of the hand speed record has always been with a narrow rimmed disc, more specifically a GUTS lid.

It makes sense if you think about it in terms of human anatomy rather than aerodynamics. Aerodynamics will have a very limited effect right out of the hand. Grip strength will have a direct effect on the initial speed and you get a stronger grip on a narrower rim. Just gripping a putter and a high speed driver and then trying to pull them out of your hand will confirm this.

While it's true that slower discs actually do have a higher top speed, and I understand that listing that was more of an FYI than something relevant to the rule, my guess is the real danger they're trying to mitigate with the rule isn't people getting hit at point blank range. Hitting someone halfway down the fairway when wider rimmed discs are flying faster is probably a much bigger concern.
 
True, a blunt nose will distribute the force more.

But there's still the problem that the PDGA does not classify discs by use. So saying putters are exempt is meaningless.

Perhaps a varying flex standard based on the disc profile rating makes more sense?

You can drive with a putter ir a driver. Go check any given"hole of the day" thread, see how many people drive with Wizards, Pures and Anodes.

A stiff disc is a stiff disc. A gummy putter will hurt less than a firm one, a stiff driver could cause some damage too. Honestly, there's not going to be a lot of difference between a stiff 175g Destroyer or a stiff 175g Wizard braining you on a full power throw. Force=mass*velocity. The impact area will be smaller with the driver, but I just don't see how any plastic disc is going to penetrate a skull. So we're talking about blunt force trauma once the disc impacts the head, regardless of wing profile. At that point, mass is mass, and it's the force of imapct that's going to be causing the injury.

The only saving grace is that if you hit someone full on in the head with CE on a cold day, there's a chance it'll shatter, absorbing some force ala "crumple zones" in a car.
In terms of safety, I don't see a need for a sliding scale of firmness based on wing shape.
 
I would be willing to bet that a driver gives a much higher pounds per square inch reading than a putter. A math guru would better explain this than me.... but say a putter and a driver are both travelling at say 10mph.... once they hit the same object (a device to measure lb/in2), the putter will push 175g over an area of about 4inche squared (I'm guessing here because of the blunt rim)..... the driver will push 175g over an area of about 1/2 inch squared. So.... the putter would hit near 8 times less force than driver if given a constant rate (with my rudimentary math on a phone).

Note- the area measured is the contact area where the nose hits the object.
 
I'll take a Medium Wizard hitting me over a 12X Firebird any day of the week. But of course they're not going to ban those. :rolleyes:
 
Have you been hit by both? I've never seen someone take a putter to the face and have it split their nose open after it had flown 300', but I have seen it happen with a driver.
 

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