[Gateway] Medium Wizards No Longer PDGA Legal?

[discgolf4lif3]

These Assault Putters are being banned. The public doesn't need them, far too dangerous. G9 Wizard. Come and take it!

Lmao

 

[DannyThunders]

i have a super stupid stiff wizard black 9/10 for $60.00 PM me.

 

[MonkeyJones]

http://morleyfield.com/2010/02/17/the-worstbest-disc-golf-video-ever/

That's gotta hurt...:gross:...putter, driver, gummy, stiff, who cares.

Gorilla Pod anyone?

This thread is not a putter vs. driver thread, but the force of a drive going through the blunt edge of a putter is going to be less damaging than the force of a drive going through the sharp edge of a driver. Equal force through less surface area = greater force upon impact to target.
a force analogy:
punch > slap : driver > putter

What a rule :doh:

 

[Craton]

A few questions that may have been answered already, but I just am not picking up on:

Is this specifically saying that ALL medium wizards are illegal? I've broken one in and it would certainly pass the test.

Is this ban on medium plastic only for wizards? What about Warlocks? That's my butter putter.

Do you have to make someone give you their disc if you want to feel the flexibility in a tournament setting? I know that sounds weird, but just wondering the ruling on having others fondle your plastic.

 

[Tpro]

You are reading it wrong. During sanctioned play, anybody can call you on your disc being too firm. When called out, you are no longer allowed to throw the disc until the TD can rule whether or not it meets all technical standards (mold, weight, flex). If it doesn't meet one or more of the technical standards, it is not a legal disc and you will be penalized.

Chances of being called out are slim. Chances of the TD being properly equipped to make the call is slim to none.

A few questions that may have been answered already, but I just am not picking up on:

Is this specifically saying that ALL medium wizards are illegal? I've broken one in and it would certainly pass the test.

Is this ban on medium plastic only for wizards? What about Warlocks? That's my butter putter.

Do you have to make someone give you their disc if you want to feel the flexibility in a tournament setting? I know that sounds weird, but just wondering the ruling on having others fondle your plastic.

Jrawk's post leads me to believe.. Anyone could call you out on any disc in your bag.. Although I could be wrong. Just like seeing someone having 178 written on the bottom of their Wizard or whatever I assume you could call them on that if you REALLY wanted to.

 

[Kp0c]

disc to Firm, a PDGA response

I was recently very sad to hear that Dave at Gateway disc sports decided to stop producing Medium Wizard for now, because they are to firm for the PDGA standard.

I emailed the PDGA about it explainning basically why I think it sucks. Here is the response I got.

I'm posting mostly so that we can discuss about the rule and the application of it, not so that we can talk sh!t about the PDGA and the people that work there.

I have asked for the permission to post this.

Response from Jeff at the PDGA :

Hi Karl,

Thanks for your email.

Stiff discs have been a sticky issue for manufacturers and the PDGA alike since the standard was instituted in 1994. The flexibility standard aims to reduce the risk of injury to both disc golfers and others who might be hit. Unfortunately, the PDGA can't test discs from every run and variant, so we largely depend on the cooperation of manufacturers. About five or six years ago I tested several hundred discs made by different manufacturers and found that nearly 10% failed the flexibility standard. I've worked with manufacturers over the years to urge them to comply with the standard and I'm willing to test any discs that may be too stiff. There has been some cooperation, but some manufacturers continue to produce discs that are too stiff, some intentionally in my opinion. It is important to note that the PDGA considered eliminating the flexibility standard several years ago, but the results of a PDGA poll indicated that disc golfers overwhelmingly supported keeping the flexibility standard, and so this standard remains.

Of course, we still have a problem, because TD's and PDGA officials lack the equipment and expertise to test discs at tournaments. The flexibility of discs sold at the IDGC are spot-checked. I was alerted by the IDGC that some Wizards appeared too stiff and so I tested some samples and found that that was indeed the case. I contacted Gateway and they agreed to be more diligent in their quality control to produce discs that will meet the standard.

I agree with you that stiff putters pose less of a risk than stiff drivers and so the PDGA may consider different flexibility standards for different classes of discs. Still, some people drive with putters on some holes and so that isn't as straight forward of a solution as you might think. To me, the best solution, so long as the flexibility standard is kept, is for manufacturers to do the necessary quality control. The PDGA can assess penalties for failure to do so, but we prefer to avoid that if at all possible.

I know that you can't test discs that you purchase, but as a rule of thumb, if it is difficult to flex a disc held in your hand (at temperatures in the 70s), then it is probably too stiff to meet the PDGA standard.

Jeff

And another response to a reply from me mentionning my concern that smaller company that were cooperating were disadvantaged over the bigger one that don't give a @#$%. :

"I understand your concern.

I must say, however, that no one is singling out Gateway. I will test any discs by any manufacturer so long as they are supplied to me. I will then follow up with any manufacturer that clearly violates the standard, especially for the most egregious cases. FYI, I have full-time job (really, my job as an archaeologist/soil scientist is more than full-time !), so I can't serve as the "disc golf police". But I do deal with flexibility issues that I am alerted to. "

discuss.

 

[Kp0c]

I'M not sure if this has been posted already, but I emailed Dave about it to express my support and he told me that a lot of info in this thread is innacurate. (Duh, really? lol).

I just asked him if I could post his answer, I will when I get the nod.

 

[Jay Dub]

Safety should be #1 priority in any sport or business to the point they error on the side of caution.
I like the PDGA's reply.

 

[prerube]

...About five or six years ago I tested several hundred discs made by different manufacturers and found that nearly 10% failed the flexibility standard.
Of course, we still have a problem, because TD's and PDGA officials lack the equipment and expertise to test discs at tournaments.

this really could have gone in the wizard thread, but Jrawk and I talked about this issue last night.

If someone claimed that another person's disc was to stiff at one of our tourneys, how would we test it? Most TD's (including myself) can not determine if a disc is illegal by feel. We can say, "damn that is a stiff disc" but we do not carry tools that measure flexability.

 

[throwfromthewoods]

The standards are there. Whether a manufacturer agrees with them or not is irrelevant. It's up to them to adhere. Purposely not adhering or not having enough quality control to make sure hundreds don't go out the door is honestly just an annoyance for our sport. It takes time and effort to fix, and now a bunch of players are holding onto "illegal" discs they paid good money for. All for the sake of a few extra bottom dollars.

If a manufacturer wanted to protest the standards, they should do so by making a point to express to their fan base WHY they can't make those discs anymore. And not risk any perception of just releasing them either out of defiance or ignorance.

 

[prerube]

I am late to the party, but I hear there is a lot of talk about 175 wizards being illegal.
THAT IS NOT TOTALLY TRUE. a 174.2 wizard may be marked as a 175 and is still legal.

 

[Kp0c]

"Safety should be #1 priority in any sport or business to the point they error on the side of caution.
I like the PDGA's reply."

I like it too. No problem there. However, how do we apply the rule so that it's fair to all manufacturers? Why do those that cooperate are being basically punished with less sale and customer potentially buying other products that meet their needs (firm putters)?

Also, Putter should have a different flexibility rule. They should be allowed to be stiffer because they are simply far less dangerous than any driver out there, even the FLX super flexible one.
Sure, I do drive with my G9i Wizard, and they are stiff as thick board of wood. However, even on a full drive (250), they don't travel very fast but for the first few meters. This is my point. Putter don't go very fast and are therefore less dangerous.

Also, putters are all about feel. I don't know of any player that plays with a putter that doesn't feel good in his hands. To change from a stiff putter to a soft one is quite a big difference, even in the same mold, a much bigger difference than switching to a driver in softer plastic. The adjustment is far more complicated with the putters in my opinion.

my two cents.

 

[bradharris]

this really could have gone in the wizard thread, but Jrawk and I talked about this issue last night.

If someone claimed that another person's disc was to stiff at one of our tourneys, how would we test it? Most TD's (including myself) can not determine if a disc is illegal by feel. We can say, "damn that is a stiff disc" but we do not carry tools that measure flexability.

From the sounds of the email, it is not up to players or TDs to decide that a disc is too stiff for play. It's a quality control issue where, if a manufacturer puts a disc out (in a legal mold), then it's legal for play. If they routinely produce discs that are too stiff, the PDGA may take action against them.

 

[Kp0c]

From the sounds of the email, it is not up to players or TDs to decide that a disc is too stiff for play. It's a quality control issue where, if a manufacturer puts a disc out (in a legal mold), then it's legal for play. If they routinely produce discs that are too stiff, the PDGA may take action against them.

What action really?

Do you think the PDGA could stop the production of firebirds from innova?

 

[tbird888]

Actually, a Wizard's max weight is 174.3. Spend a couple months with a 175, and it'll lose enough plastic to make weight though.

 

[bradharris]

I like it too. No problem there. However, how do we apply the rule so that it's fair to all manufacturers? Why do those that cooperate are being basically punished with less sale and customer potentially buying other products that meet their needs (firm putters)?

Who is being punished unfairly?

Also, Putter should have a different flexibility rule. They should be allowed to be stiffer because they are simply far less dangerous than any driver out there, even the FLX super flexible one.
Sure, I do drive with my G9i Wizard, and they are stiff as thick board of wood. However, even on a full drive (250), they don't travel very fast but for the first few meters. This is my point. Putter don't go very fast and are therefore less dangerous.

One problem is that the PDGA doesn't classify discs by speed or use. Find where it says "putter" on the PDGA approved disc list. And as was explained, putters are used for driving as well as putting.

I even read somewhere that a radar gun study shows that putters actually tend to fly faster right out of the hand than drivers do. So in theory, a putter can cause as much, if not more damage at close range.

 

[Fishy]

Holy hell, someone drives with a putter? and that makes them dangerous? Pretty sure all of us would rather get hit with a stiff putter over a driver. I'm think a revision of their guidelines needs to rule out putters. I'm also thinking the worst that can happen is a nasty bruise from someone driving a putter compared to serious laceration. I understand that no one wants people throwing saw blades around, but we really need to apply some common sense to the sport.

 

[Jay Dub]

"Safety should be #1 priority in any sport or business to the point they error on the side of caution.
I like the PDGA's reply."

I like it too. No problem there. However, how do we apply the rule so that it's fair to all manufacturers? Why do those that cooperate are being basically punished with less sale and customer potentially buying other products that meet their needs (firm putters)?

Also, Putter should have a different flexibility rule. They should be allowed to be stiffer because they are simply far less dangerous than any driver out there, even the FLX super flexible one.
Sure, I do drive with my G9i Wizard, and they are stiff as thick board of wood. However, even on a full drive (250), they don't travel very fast but for the first few meters. This is my point. Putter don't go very fast and are therefore less dangerous.

Also, putters are all about feel. I don't know of any player that plays with a putter that doesn't feel good in his hands. To change from a stiff putter to a soft one is quite a big difference, even in the same mold, a much bigger difference than switching to a driver in softer plastic. The adjustment is far more complicated with the putters in my opinion.

my two cents.

In regards to putters I'll add their blunt rims makes them less of a safety issue than the wide relatively sharp rims of the higher speed drivers.

 

[prerube]

Yeah, I hit the wrong button, but I still edited it 2 minutes before your post.
I picked 174.2 because it was below the wieght, but could still be marked as 175.

 

[steve a]

I'M not sure if this has been posted already, but I emailed Dave about it to express my support and he told me that a lot of info in this thread is innacurate. (Duh, really? lol).

I just asked him if I could post his answer, I will when I get the nod.

Are you going to post it here or start another new thread for Dave's response?