[Gateway] Medium Wizards No Longer PDGA Legal?

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

switched to Medium Wizards about a year ago. I absolutely love them. Also bought some G9i's at Worlds. they are soooo much more stiff than my Medium. I actually thought that this might be an issue. no disc I have ever felt was as stiff as those. Medium is staying in the bag.

 

[dx_roc]

I asked Jeff about the news and received this reply:

I'm copying an email that I wrote earlier this morning, as it addresses the issues that you raise.

"Stiff discs have been a sticky issue for manufacturers and the PDGA alike since the standard was instituted in 1994. The flexibility standard aims to reduce the risk of injury to both disc golfers and others who might be hit. Unfortunately, the PDGA can't test discs from every run and variant, so we largely depend on the cooperation of manufacturers. About five or six years ago I tested several hundred discs made by different manufacturers and found that nearly 10% failed the flexibility standard. I've worked with manufacturers over the years to urge them to comply with the standard and I'm willing to test any discs that may be too stiff. There has been some cooperation, but some manufacturers continue to produce discs that are too stiff, some intentionally in my opinion. It is important to note that the PDGA considered eliminating the flexibility standard several years ago, but the results of a PDGA poll indicated that disc golfers overwhelmingly supported keeping the flexibility standard, and so this standard remains.

Of course, we still have a problem, because TD's and PDGA officials lack the equipment and expertise to test discs at tournaments. The flexibility of discs sold at the IDGC are spot-checked. I was alerted by the IDGC that some Wizards appeared too stiff and so I tested some samples and found that that was indeed the case. I contacted Gateway and they agreed to be more diligent in their quality control to produce discs that will meet the standard.

I agree with you that stiff putters pose less of a risk than stiff drivers and so the PDGA may consider different flexibility standards for different classes of discs. Still, some people drive with putters on some holes and so that isn't as straight forward of a solution as you might think. To me, the best solution, so long as the flexibility standard is kept, is for manufacturers to do the necessary quality control. The PDGA can assess penalties for failure to do so, but we prefer to avoid that if at all possible.

I know that you can't test discs that you purchase, but as a rule of thumb, if it is difficult to flex a disc held in your hand (at temperatures in the 70s), then it is probably too stiff to meet the PDGA standard."

This is another email that I wrote this morning:

"I must say that no one is singling out Gateway. I will test any discs by any manufacturer so long as they are supplied to me. I will then follow up with any manufacturer that clearly violates the standard, especially for the most egregious cases. FYI, I have full-time job (really, my job as an archaeologist/soil scientist is more than full-time!), so I can't serve as the "disc golf police". But I do deal with flexibility issues that I am alerted to."

Jeff Homburg (#1025)

 

[jrawk]

I asked Jeff about the news and received this reply:

I'm copying an email that I wrote earlier this morning, as it addresses the issues that you raise.

"Stiff discs have been a sticky issue for manufacturers and the PDGA alike since the standard was instituted in 1994. The flexibility standard aims to reduce the risk of injury to both disc golfers and others who might be hit. Unfortunately, the PDGA can't test discs from every run and variant, so we largely depend on the cooperation of manufacturers. About five or six years ago I tested several hundred discs made by different manufacturers and found that nearly 10% failed the flexibility standard. I've worked with manufacturers over the years to urge them to comply with the standard and I'm willing to test any discs that may be too stiff. There has been some cooperation, but some manufacturers continue to produce discs that are too stiff, some intentionally in my opinion. It is important to note that the PDGA considered eliminating the flexibility standard several years ago, but the results of a PDGA poll indicated that disc golfers overwhelmingly supported keeping the flexibility standard, and so this standard remains.

Of course, we still have a problem, because TD's and PDGA officials lack the equipment and expertise to test discs at tournaments. The flexibility of discs sold at the IDGC are spot-checked. I was alerted by the IDGC that some Wizards appeared too stiff and so I tested some samples and found that that was indeed the case. I contacted Gateway and they agreed to be more diligent in their quality control to produce discs that will meet the standard.

I agree with you that stiff putters pose less of a risk than stiff drivers and so the PDGA may consider different flexibility standards for different classes of discs. Still, some people drive with putters on some holes and so that isn't as straight forward of a solution as you might think. To me, the best solution, so long as the flexibility standard is kept, is for manufacturers to do the necessary quality control. The PDGA can assess penalties for failure to do so, but we prefer to avoid that if at all possible.

I know that you can't test discs that you purchase, but as a rule of thumb, if it is difficult to flex a disc held in your hand (at temperatures in the 70s), then it is probably too stiff to meet the PDGA standard."

This is another email that I wrote this morning:

"I must say that no one is singling out Gateway. I will test any discs by any manufacturer so long as they are supplied to me. I will then follow up with any manufacturer that clearly violates the standard, especially for the most egregious cases. FYI, I have full-time job (really, my job as an archaeologist/soil scientist is more than full-time!), so I can't serve as the "disc golf police". But I do deal with flexibility issues that I am alerted to."

Jeff Homburg (#1025)

I think option to eliminate the flexibility standard should be explored again. Maybe someone can put together an online petition.

 

[Tpro]

I have a couple of the g9i's and they are Frickin STIFF. They feel like they would explode not just break. That being said and pardon the stupid question but cant plastic be rediculously hard and flexible? I too think that the newerish Firebirds and even some Beasts ive felt are just plan hard/stiff at the Rim though maybe not so stiff in the center of the Flight plate...

 

[Paul25934]

ANY modern high speed driver in ANY plastic will put the hurt on any poor soul who happens to be struck with it. This is a rediculous standard

 

[Scoot_er]

I asked Jeff about the news and received this reply:

I'm copying an email that I wrote earlier this morning, as it addresses the issues that you raise.

"Stiff discs have been a sticky issue for manufacturers and the PDGA alike since the standard was instituted in 1994. The flexibility standard aims to reduce the risk of injury to both disc golfers and others who might be hit. Unfortunately, the PDGA can't test discs from every run and variant, so we largely depend on the cooperation of manufacturers. About five or six years ago I tested several hundred discs made by different manufacturers and found that nearly 10% failed the flexibility standard. I've worked with manufacturers over the years to urge them to comply with the standard and I'm willing to test any discs that may be too stiff. There has been some cooperation, but some manufacturers continue to produce discs that are too stiff, some intentionally in my opinion. It is important to note that the PDGA considered eliminating the flexibility standard several years ago, but the results of a PDGA poll indicated that disc golfers overwhelmingly supported keeping the flexibility standard, and so this standard remains.

Of course, we still have a problem, because TD's and PDGA officials lack the equipment and expertise to test discs at tournaments. The flexibility of discs sold at the IDGC are spot-checked. I was alerted by the IDGC that some Wizards appeared too stiff and so I tested some samples and found that that was indeed the case. I contacted Gateway and they agreed to be more diligent in their quality control to produce discs that will meet the standard.

I agree with you that stiff putters pose less of a risk than stiff drivers and so the PDGA may consider different flexibility standards for different classes of discs. Still, some people drive with putters on some holes and so that isn't as straight forward of a solution as you might think. To me, the best solution, so long as the flexibility standard is kept, is for manufacturers to do the necessary quality control. The PDGA can assess penalties for failure to do so, but we prefer to avoid that if at all possible.

I know that you can't test discs that you purchase, but as a rule of thumb, if it is difficult to flex a disc held in your hand (at temperatures in the 70s), then it is probably too stiff to meet the PDGA standard."

This is another email that I wrote this morning:

"I must say that no one is singling out Gateway. I will test any discs by any manufacturer so long as they are supplied to me. I will then follow up with any manufacturer that clearly violates the standard, especially for the most egregious cases. FYI, I have full-time job (really, my job as an archaeologist/soil scientist is more than full-time!), so I can't serve as the "disc golf police". But I do deal with flexibility issues that I am alerted to."

Jeff Homburg (#1025)

PDGA poll! HAHAHAHAH

You ever see the results of those things?

 

[doctor professor]

ANY modern high speed driver in ANY plastic will put the hurt on any poor soul who happens to be struck with it. This is a rediculous standard

Yup. I saw a girl get hit in the back of the head with a champion valk. Knocked her out cold. Paramedics came and she went to the hospital... It doesn't take a super stiff disc to cause damage

 

[Mr. America]

People need to realize that their discs they already have are not illegal unless I am reading what Chuck said wrong.

 

[garublador]

To me, the best solution, so long as the flexibility standard is kept, is for manufacturers to do the necessary quality control. The PDGA can assess penalties for failure to do so, but we prefer to avoid that if at all possible.

Jeff Homburg (#1025)

At least there's someone there who realizes what the best solution is. It's just too bad they prefer to avoid the best solution if possible, though I can't say I'm surprised to hear that.

 

[Flip Hyzerman]

A guy I play with tried to tell me that "All of Gateway's Soft plastic is now illegal for tourneys!" today ... I'm not really sure if he doesn't read very well or he really believes some of this junk he comes up with.

 

[jrawk]

People need to realize that their discs they already have are not illegal unless I am reading what Chuck said wrong.

You are reading it wrong. During sanctioned play, anybody can call you on your disc being too firm. When called out, you are no longer allowed to throw the disc until the TD can rule whether or not it meets all technical standards (mold, weight, flex). If it doesn't meet one or more of the technical standards, it is not a legal disc and you will be penalized.

Chances of being called out are slim. Chances of the TD being properly equipped to make the call is slim to none.

 

[tbird888]

You are reading it wrong. During sanctioned play, anybody can call you on your disc being too firm. When called out, you are no longer allowed to throw the disc until the TD can rule whether or not it meets all technical standards (mold, weight, flex). If it doesn't meet one or more of the technical standards, it is not a legal disc and you will be penalized.

Chances of being called out are slim. Chances of the TD being properly equipped to make the call is slim to none.

How is the TD going to prove whether a disc is legal or not by feel? I surely wouldn't let them test my putting G9i's flex. It would destroy the disc. I would also question the scale used to weigh a disc's accuracy. I don't see how anyone expects a TD to enforce these rules. It's ludicrous.

 

[bluedodger]

All I putt with is stiff to full on medium Wizards....and they are all 175...I ain't quitting...just call me Billy the Kid...

...but seriously, please don't call me out on it in a tourney, I'd rather not putt with Buzzzes for 17 holes...

 

[jenb]

Yes there is. :thmbup:

Thanks. I noticed there is no minimum temp specified. Who gets to choose the temp at which a particular disc is tested? If the manufacturer has no say, a PDGA tester with a bias against a manufacturer could choose to test that manufacturer's discs outside on a freezing winter day.

 

[dmk1978]

"stiff-o-meter" machine will test all discs

 

[tarel]

deep in the game episode 8: how we payed the pdga to screw gateway, and i accidentally won worlds once

 

[smyith]

Thanks. I noticed there is no minimum temp specified. Who gets to choose the temp at which a particular disc is tested? If the manufacturer has no say, a PDGA tester with a bias against a manufacturer could choose to test that manufacturer's discs outside on a freezing winter day.

I know that you can't test discs that you purchase, but as a rule of thumb, if it is difficult to flex a disc held in your hand (at temperatures in the 70s), then it is probably too stiff to meet the PDGA standard."
Jeff Homburg (#1025)

A bit cynical aren't you JenB?
My guess is that they probably try to test them at 70 degrees.

 

[666BEAST666]

I asked them about this last time I was up there. They can sell the discs again, but they have to have a mold that doesn't say they are pdga approved... that was the big deal.

 

[BrotherDave]

I'm getting a stiffy just thinking about this thread.








(okay, not really)

 

[Huk Finn]

These Assault Putters are being banned. The public doesn't need them, far too dangerous. G9 Wizard. Come and take it!