[Gateway] Medium Wizards No Longer PDGA Legal?

[Jimb]

"No it's not!"

 

[steve a]

That was due to a production defect. Totally different situation. I doubt Gateway will be buying back any discs.

I would call the gateway mistake a production defect as well. Both scenarios the discs were produced and were not compliant with pdga rules.

 

[Cgkdisc]

At its core, this discussion isn't about the flexibility rule but whether a governing authority like the PDGA has the right to make rules and whether the participants are willing to follow them. Simple as that. Rules in any sport draw a sometimes arbitrary line in the sand and players in theory agree to follow them regardless whether they personally might think a rule isn't what they would have created. Does it makes sense that a 5-ft wide creek is marked OB on one course and not on another? Maybe not. But players accept the rule and play on accepting the consequences. Why was that penalty set at 2m above the ground versus 1m? Why is the amateur with a 995 rating still allowed to play Advanced?

Various tech standards were set in the early years because it was felt some nod had to be made toward safety. The specs would be blanket oriented, i.e. covering all discs without making exceptions for different model types to keep it simple. Those specs have held up for more than 20 years with only a minor tweak here and there.

So yes it may suck that these discs fell outside of the flex spec. But that spec has been there a long time and wasn't sprung on anyone by surprise. That doesn't mean it isn't worth reconsidering the flex rule. For now, that line continues to remain in the sand and sportsmen will hopefully agree to follow it until changed.

 

[Jay Dub]

At its core, this discussion isn't about the flexibility rule but whether a governing authority like the PDGA has the right to make rules and whether the participants are willing to follow them. Simple as that. Rules in any sport draw a sometimes arbitrary line in the sand and players in theory agree to follow them regardless whether they personally might think a rule isn't what they would have created. Does it makes sense that a 5-ft wide creek is marked OB on one course and not on another? Maybe not. But players accept the rule and play on accepting the consequences. Why was that penalty set at 2m above the ground versus 1m? Why is the amateur with a 995 rating still allowed to play Advanced?

Various tech standards were set in the early years because it was felt some nod had to be made toward safety. The specs would be blanket oriented, i.e. covering all discs without making exceptions for different model types to keep it simple. Those specs have held up for more than 20 years with only a minor tweak here and there.

So yes it may suck that these discs fell outside of the flex spec. But that spec has been there a long time and wasn't sprung on anyone by surprise. That doesn't mean it isn't worth reconsidering the flex rule. For now, that line continues to remain in the sand and sportsmen will hopefully agree to follow it until changed.

:clap:

 

[tbird888]

Courses are not consistent. Equipment should be.

I think with a governing body that's more willing to proactively enforce their own policies instead of waiting for someone to tattle when one gets broken, the harsh words in this thread would have been avoided. It's kind of funny that things like OB rules get tweaked but a horribly general rule that has been abused forever by every manufacturer remains in place. (10X Aviars? I don't know anyone who would donate one for testing, but I guarantee they are as firm as the G9i Wizards. One of those had to have found its way to a PDGA official when they were out yet no one just happened to test it...?)

 

[prerube]

This is literally the dumbest thing I have ever read. Are you somehow suggesting that drivers continue to accelerate after leaving the hand? Thanks to air resistance, the velocity at which it leaves your hand is going to be the "top speed" after which it starts slowing down.

Guess you need to go back to skewl

 

[steve a]

Courses are not consistent. Equipment should be.

I think with a governing body that's more willing to proactively enforce their own policies instead of waiting for someone to tattle when one gets broken, the harsh words in this thread would have been avoided. It's kind of funny that things like OB rules get tweaked but a horribly general rule that has been abused forever by every manufacturer remains in place. (10X Aviars? I don't know anyone who would donate one for testing, but I guarantee they are as firm as the G9i Wizards. One of those had to have found its way to a PDGA official when they were out yet no one just happened to test it...)

I agree, if the pdga has the right to make the rules they should also have the responsibility to enforce them. It should not be up to the participants to guess if each others discs are within spec. If it says pdga approved on the disc than it is up to the pdga and the manufacturers to make sure it is approved.

I read earlier in the thread that the testing staff has a full time job and does not have the time to do the testing required. Why is this the case? With all the fees charged for membership and tournaments you would think that they could shell out a little bit for upholding their end of the deal.

 

[tbird888]

I think this is a little too telling.

One (and only one) manufacturer sponsoring the site? Seems like a serious conflict of interest.

Chuck, I know I keep harping on the same stuff, but this is the same manufacturer with 5 different discs marketed under the same approved name, an unapproved disc being sold under an approved mold's name (I know you've seen the Destrulcan threads that eventually bore the TeeDevil), and countless others following within that trend (regardless of what you say, this has to be a new wing and not a molding variance - Dave himself gave an indication on how to tell a Roc+ and a Roc that molded plus-like apart).

 

[mashnut]

Where would you like that money to come from? People already whine that the PDGA doesn't do enough for them, a full time testing staff is going to eat up a good chunk of the money that's going to other programs, so you're going to have to make major cuts or increase member fees.

 

[mashnut]

Guess you need to go back to skewl

Says the guy who's claiming that discs somehow accelerate after they leave your hand. He wasn't arguing over your statement that putters have the potential to leave your hand at a higher velocity, he was arguing with your flawed understanding of that concept.

 

[tbird888]

Where would you like that money to come from? People already whine that the PDGA doesn't do enough for them, a full time testing staff is going to eat up a good chunk of the money that's going to other programs, so you're going to have to make major cuts or increase member fees.

If you're going to only enforce in a half-ass manner then maybe the rule should be removed or revised heavily.

As someone who has taken both a firm putter off the tee (don't stand to the right when someone's throwing) and a much softer driver moving very slow to the head (from a friend with a horrible sense of humor), I'll take the putter any day.

 

[mashnut]

You could say the same thing about any of the tech standards. Would you rather only have 1 manufacturer with a few disc models and limited availability but that were all checked by the PDGA? Would you rather have a single basket model, and only have it installed on a few hundred courses because that's how many the PDGA was able to inspect? We don't have enough players joining the organization to support blanket testing for compliance with all the tech standards but that's not a good reason for simply giving up those standards. If you think it's a problem, start sending in discs that don't meet specs as was mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[Huk Finn]

Can someone post a link to the PDGA flex standards specs rules regulations please.. Thanks!

 

[notroman]

Can someone post a link to the PDGA flex standards specs rules regulations please.. Thanks!

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGATechStandards_1-1-13.pdf

 

[tbird888]

You could say the same thing about any of the tech standards. Would you rather only have 1 manufacturer with a few disc models and limited availability but that were all checked by the PDGA? Would you rather have a single basket model, and only have it installed on a few hundred courses because that's how many the PDGA was able to inspect? We don't have enough players joining the organization to support blanket testing for compliance with all the tech standards but that's not a good reason for simply giving up those standards. If you think it's a problem, start sending in discs that don't meet specs as was mentioned earlier in the thread.

Again, I shouldn't have to tattle on the manufacturers. It's the governing body of the sport's responsibility to enforce the rules they created. When I got my handbook for renewing my membership (when I did renew), it clearly is a PDGA handbook, not a SteveTharpDGA handbook. What's the point of having them govern the sport if we have to do the governing?

I can understand enforcing the rules in a tourney (foot fault, hole in a flightplate, etc) but not disc firmness (how will you test it? The TD feels it up a little and says, "oh yeah...too firm"?). I wonder how many people are now going to go out and call someone for throwing a G9i Wizard in competition. The one I've been working on is getting to have a fairly flexible flightplate, but I technically shouldn't throw it in competition because it's a G9i? Chances are it has softened enough to pass the flex test. Will I send it in to be destroyed in testing just to be sure? No. In competition, I'm on a course that generally closes the course to outside traffic. Why is disc firmness even an issue to the PDGA if the only people on the course know to keep their eyes open?

 

[Cgkdisc]

The PDGA short of marshals at a few major events does not call the rules. It can apply sanctions after the call to those players or manufacturers that violate certain rules. It's a self regulated sport during play. OB rules get called by players. Issues come up and sometimes lead to rule changes. Surprisingly!?!? Overweight and less flexible discs have rarely been called. Part of it may be the inability for easy testing in the field and part may be that players like what those discs do and don't want to tattle.

If you play thru whatever effort by PDGA and manufacturers would be involved to achieve more full compliance, you can see that whatever cost and effort would be involved will ultimately be paid by the players. Not to say it isn't worthwhile, but that would be the direction needed.

 

[jrawk]

repeal the flex rule!

 

[tbird888]

Refine the flex rule!

And Chuck, your argument about stronger enforcement of the rules costing golfers in the end (which I understand that the manufacturers would certainly pass on the cost to us) means the rule is no longer about safety like it was originally intended. It's now about making sure we can still buy plastic. Sounds like it's time for a rule change.

 

[otnavuskire]

I would call the gateway mistake a production defect as well. Both scenarios the discs were produced and were not compliant with pdga rules.

Yes, but in one scenario the disc was produced with a hole that wasn't supposed to be there. That's a defect. In the other scenario, the discs were produced they way they were supposed to be. That is not a defect. No one should be expecting money back from Gateway.

 

[Huk Finn]

I've got a pre-ban G9. COME AND TAKE IT!