[Gateway] Medium Wizards No Longer PDGA Legal?

[steve a]

Yes, but in one scenario the disc was produced with a hole that wasn't supposed to be there. That's a defect. In the other scenario, the discs were produced they way they were supposed to be. That is not a defect. No one should be expecting money back from Gateway.

If the disc is supposed to be pdga approved and is not within the specs of the pdga rules it was not produced right either. js

 

[tarel]

so medium is banned, glad i have firm ones at least those will be ok.

 

[Grungedude42]

You would think you could use a spring scale (fishing scale) to measure flex. Something as simple as "secure disc, set fulcrum point at middle of disc, attach spring scale. (Hook it under rim) Pull on scale until disc deflects 1". (Or 0.5", or 12mm, whatever) If spring gauge reads under X lbs, (kg, whatever), it's legit. No need to destroy a disc, if you pull and the gauge reads above X before deflecting enough, you quit, disc isn't broken, but it fails. The only gear needed is a square with ruler markings and the fishing scale.
I'm not saying this should be a TD's responsibility, just spitballing ways it could he done at home or in the field.

 

[steve a]

You would think you could use a spring scale (fishing scale) to measure flex. Something as simple as "secure disc, set fulcrum point at middle of disc, attach spring scale. (Hook it under rim) Pull on scale until disc deflects 1". (Or 0.5", or 12mm, whatever) If spring gauge reads under X lbs, (kg, whatever), it's legit. No need to destroy a disc, if you pull and the gauge reads above X before deflecting enough, you quit, disc isn't broken, but it fails. The only gear needed is a square with ruler markings and the fishing scale.
I'm not saying this should be a TD's responsibility, just spitballing ways it could he done at home or in the field.

The pdga test involves bending the disc in half. I hope you wouldn't do that to my disc half way through a tournament.

 

[Grungedude42]

You would think you could use a spring scale (fishing scale) to measure flex. Something as simple as "secure disc, set fulcrum point at middle of disc, attach spring scale. (Hook it under rim) Pull on scale until disc deflects 1". (Or 0.5", or 12mm, whatever) If spring gauge reads under X lbs, (kg, whatever), it's legit. No need to destroy a disc, if you pull and the gauge reads above X before deflecting enough, you quit, disc isn't broken, but it fails. The only gear needed is a square with ruler markings and the fishing scale.
I'm not saying this should be a TD's responsibility, just spitballing ways it could he done at home or in the field.

I wouldn't break a thing. For one, I'd never call someone on a stiff disc. Two, I wouldn't want to deal with testing. Three, I'd rather play and get done that screw around testing gear. Four, all I'm doing is brainstorming a less involved way to test a standard.

 

[steve a]

but if you pull and it does deflect and bend the disc, then what?

 

[tbird888]

I wouldn't break a thing. For one, I'd never call someone on a stiff disc. Two, I wouldn't want to deal with testing. Three, I'd rather play and get done that screw around testing gear. Four, all I'm doing is brainstorming a less involved way to test a standard.

Openly admitting you'd allow someone to cheat? Shame on you!

 

[Grungedude42]

but if you pull and it does deflect and bend the disc, then what?

If a disc can flex, it should flex right back, and pass. If the allowable range is small enough, say 1/2" to 1". Betcha even a "stiff" disc bends more than that everytime it hits a tree. If the standard is set to use stresses seen during normal play, it should not harm a disc. If the disc is too stiff to bend even 1/2", would you feel comfortable taking it off the wall?

Not allowing anyone to cheat. Simply asking if a useable standard could be set for field testing. I'm not going to be that guy who bends every putter I help pull out of a basket.

 

[tarel]

i weep for those rock hard vibrams that float around, i had a summit that had 0 flex, was like a rock table

 

[jrawk]

If a disc can flex, it should flex right back, and pass. If the allowable range is small enough, say 1/2" to 1". Betcha even a "stiff" disc bends more than that everytime it hits a tree. If the standard is set to use stresses seen during normal play, it should not harm a disc. If the disc is too stiff to bend even 1/2", would you feel comfortable taking it off the wall?

Not allowing anyone to cheat. Simply asking if a useable standard could be set for field testing. I'm not going to be that guy who bends every putter I help pull out of a basket.

No that's not true. The disc doesn't have to return to it's previous state... it just has to be able to flex that much without breaking/shattering/snapping.

You can take a Zero Pure, bend it in half and meet the flex requirement... don't expect to ever throw that same disc again.

The idea here is that the disc will absorb the a lot of energy on impact, and not be transfered to the surface (or person) it's impacting.

 

[Grungedude42]

I guess my point isn't coming across well, or I'm just way off the mark. So, you suggest there are discs out there which can pass the PDGA flex guidelines, but would be irrepairable if flexed a little bit while attempting to measure the tension with a fishing scale?

 

[DannyThunders]

I just imagined pdga officials running up to someone while they're going for a putt and snapping their disc in half.. lol

 

[garublador]

You would think you could use a spring scale (fishing scale) to measure flex. Something as simple as "secure disc, set fulcrum point at middle of disc, attach spring scale. (Hook it under rim) Pull on scale until disc deflects 1". (Or 0.5", or 12mm, whatever) If spring gauge reads under X lbs, (kg, whatever), it's legit. No need to destroy a disc, if you pull and the gauge reads above X before deflecting enough, you quit, disc isn't broken, but it fails. The only gear needed is a square with ruler markings and the fishing scale.
I'm not saying this should be a TD's responsibility, just spitballing ways it could he done at home or in the field.

The problem is that all that stuff needs to calibrated and certified. You not only need a certified and calibrated instrument to find the "middle" of the disc, you need another one to measure 1" and another one to measure the X lbs. Those instruments all need to be re certified and calibrated every so often too.

Also, bending the rim like that is almost certainly a post manufacturing modification that some would say makes the disc illegal. So one guy calls out your disc for being too stiff and then another claims it's illegal no matter what the results of the flex test are.

Disc manufacturing was clearly not thought of when the tech standards were put in place. Without proper policing by the PDGA it makes many of the rules near pointless as illustrated by threads like this.

 

[Koffee]

I have read most of the thread and my first thought is that if you are going to have this standard it would not be that big of an issue to fix as far as monitoring.

Step 1
You just need the TDs to have a decent idea of how much pressure it takes to flex a disc to be illegal. (I see no need for a technical device for measuring this being on location for tournaments. Umpires. Referees, line Judges make judgment calls all the time its part of sports. What is the worst that can happen, you do not get to use a certain Disc.)

Step 2
At A tier events have discs checked for 1 year or whatever time frame you would like. This will give players visual info on what it takes for discs to be legal and illegal. (No need to do below A tier as I believe this standard will trickle down eventually)

Step 3 as people get mad because discs were determined as illegal they will put pressure on the manufactures of the discs. Also I would have a section on the PDGA website warning players which discs were marked as illegal. This would inform players what discs to be on the watch for.

Step 4
No system is perfect and people will cheat look at baseball. You need to be smart and not do crazy things but put some system in place and keep tuning it till it becomes something you can live with.

Cheers - Koffee

 

[Craton]

I know Craton's Mythbusters post was sarcastic, but something like that could put a lot of complaints/concerns to rest.

It wasn't sarcastic in the least. I just got sick of hearing everyone saying one of three things, and no one making progress. I think it's a great idea. No sarcasm.

 

[666BEAST666]

PDGA ban = dick move (and a little bit shady)
Whole situation = retarded

Stupid rule.

 

[tbird888]

It wasn't sarcastic in the least. I just got sick of hearing everyone saying one of three things, and no one making progress. I think it's a great idea. No sarcasm.

I apologize for the misunderstanding, and I agree. It's a great idea. Knowing whether or not a putter would do damage would either shut me up or solidify my position. Either way, I'd rather have concrete facts even if it meant having to abandon my G9i's altogether.

I would like to see seasoned and new discs tested too if possible.

 

[Halcón]

DG on Mythbusters? I don't think Mythbusters is filming new episodes.

 

[mashnut]

Perhaps Time Warp would work, throwing various discs in different firmnesses at a head analogue in really slow motion could be fun and educational.

 

[wake911]

I guess it comes down to this. Are current Medium Wizards legal but Gateway just can't make new ones that stiff? Or could there be illegal disc out there right now that we could get called on.

I think it's complete BS if you can't use currently manufactured and sold discs. I have ZERO issue with PDGA telling any manufacturer to stop creating a disc due to out of spec. But if my disc says PDGA APPROVED, and I have done no modifications beyond normal wear and tear, and my disc is judged as illegal, I'd be having some pretty irate conversations about getting a bunch of money back. (disc purchase price, tourney entry fees if DQ'd due to disc, lodging and travel for that same tourney)

Seems like the manufacturers need to be held to the fire a bit about inconsistency in their molding, and adherence to the rules. But that costs money. I think the manufacturers should have to pay for this as well.

I doubt, mainly due to the lack of violations in general, that anyone would call out a guy for a disc violation. I'll tell you I will NEVER second an illegal disc call (are seconds even required in that?) Unless there is an obvious defect (big hole, etc)