[Gateway] Medium Wizards No Longer PDGA Legal?

[doctor professor]

Again, I shouldn't have to tattle on the manufacturers. It's the governing body of the sport's responsibility to enforce the rules they created. When I got my handbook for renewing my membership (when I did renew), it clearly is a PDGA handbook, not a SteveTharpDGA handbook. What's the point of having them govern the sport if we have to do the governing?

I can understand enforcing the rules in a tourney (foot fault, hole in a flightplate, etc) but not disc firmness (how will you test it? The TD feels it up a little and says, "oh yeah...too firm"?). I wonder how many people are now going to go out and call someone for throwing a G9i Wizard in competition. The one I've been working on is getting to have a fairly flexible flightplate, but I technically shouldn't throw it in competition because it's a G9i? Chances are it has softened enough to pass the flex test. Will I send it in to be destroyed in testing just to be sure? No. In competition, I'm on a course that generally closes the course to outside traffic. Why is disc firmness even an issue to the PDGA if the only people on the course know to keep their eyes open?

Right. What's the point of putting rules like this in place if they are too busy and overwhelmed to enforce them. This is what happens when standards are not followed up on properly or really enforced at all. Singling out one specific company, disc, plastic type or whatever isn't cool. Like I said before, if pdga wants to enforce the regulation on one item they should be ready to put the work in to make sure everyone else is in compliance as well.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Again, the PDGA does not call the rules. It has been and will continue to be the players' responsibility to call the rules. All the PDGA does is verify the calls and apply sanctions where indicated by the rules.

 

[doctor professor]

It's pdga approval that's causing the dilemma. It seems that there are so many sides to the issue. Like plenty of others have said... It's time to revisit the rule.

 

[tbird888]

This is a manufacturing flex standard on a disc, not a foot fault. I believe this qualifies more along the lines of disc certification. It is plastic certification after all, right? These discs should never hit the shelves. Proactive, not reactive...

Do I get to handle the next disc approval since you want me to call you with plastic flex faults? No offense, but your argument is pretty weak.

 

[Cgkdisc]

BTW, having players call the tech standards rules all over the world is ultimately more effective than any paid staff and additional QC efforts could possibly be... if they call them. Manufacturers will never know where problems might randomly pop up. As mentioned before, all the PDGA ever sees initially is the samples submitted for testing which may not be from the eventual first commercial production run.

 

[doctor professor]

Attention all disc companies..... Send me all your discs to flex test!

 

[jenb]

Again, I shouldn't have to tattle on the manufacturers. It's the governing body of the sport's responsibility to enforce the rules they created.

I think you'd be surprised how many organizations operate this way. Bar Associations, for example, don't actively investigate the ethics of attorneys. They only act on reports from it's members, even when the information is easily available. It almost seems like they turn a blind eye to anything unless someone complains. <--understatement

 

[doctor professor]

BTW, having players call the tech standards rules all over the world is ultimately more effective than any paid staff and additional QC efforts could possibly be... if they call them. Manufacturers will never know where problems might randomly pop up. As mentioned before, all the PDGA ever sees initially is the samples submitted for testing which may not be from the eventual first commercial production run.

Allowing players to determine whether or not discs meet the standards is in no way more effective for a multitude of reasons. The fact that all the pdga bases their approval on are the samples given is a big problem that allows way too many discrepancies.

 

[tbird888]

I think you'd be surprised how many organizations operate this way. Bar Associations, for example, don't actively investigate the ethics of attorneys. They only act on reports from it's members, even when the information is easily available. It almost seems like they turn a blind eye to anything unless someone complains. <--understatement

I'm aware. I have a few attorneys in my family. Sports and law are two very different sides of the spectrum. Bending three discs from each run of a mold from every manufacturer and sending someone to sit in court/offices for every one of the millions of lawyers in this country are two very different things.

Almost every sport has very detailed standards for their equipment that is monitored by the governing body. Why is it such a stretch to expect the same from ours? I accept that our equipment is made from scraps of whatever plastic gets shipped, but why maintain one standard and ignore the others? I guarantee most of them wouldn't meet half of the standards reported on the approved list.

 

[tbird888]

Allowing players to determine whether or not discs meet the standards is in no way more effective for a multitude of reasons. The fact that all the pdga bases their approval on are the samples given is a big problem that allows way too many discrepancies.

Want to get around the rule? Don't send anything in for testing you're not sure will pass. Also don't donate anything remotely close to the PDGA. What a joke.

 

[Cgkdisc]

As pointed out, not meeting any spec is a manufacturing defect that should be handled just like the example where there's a sprue hole. You return it to the retailer for replacement or refund. I know some retailers including some online will weigh discs for example not going by the marked value provided by the manufacturer.

I've tossed out the idea in the Tech group that maybe we need to have a future flex test that's easier to check in the field. But for now, a quick email to PDGA HQ to report possible discs or production runs that might be out-of-spec is available to players. Some have already done so as a result of this recent incident.

 

[doctor professor]

Want to get around the rule? Don't send anything in for testing you're not sure will pass. Also don't donate anything remotely close to the PDGA. What a joke.

That's it, unfortunately

 

[tbird888]

As pointed out, not meeting any spec is a manufacturing defect that should be handled just like the example where there's a sprue hole. You return it to the retailer for replacement or refund. I know some retailers including some online will weigh discs for example not going by the marked value provided by the manufacturer.

I've tossed out the idea in the Tech group that maybe we need to have a future flex test that's easier to check in the field. But for now, a quick email to PDGA HQ to report possible discs or production runs that might be out-of-spec is available to players. Some have already done so as a result of this recent incident.

That's still reactive. When I find a mold I like, I stock up. I'm throwing discs from three, four, five years ago. If I get nicked for a firm disc, are you going to add "the run of ESP Zones from three years ago that are firm and concave" to the list? I've been throwing that same Zone since I got it, along with the other five I have. It is stamped PDGA Approved, and you're telling me it's illegal? You're saying the PDGA Approved stamp means nothing. Your method has already failed.

I don't understand why the general attitude of the PDGA is "let's wait and see." You are the governing body. GOVERN!!!! Stop the mistakes before they reach general population.

I realize I'm a real pain in the ass to you, and I don't see that stopping in the future. I believe this will do more to make you think than carrying on "business as usual". I thank you for being willing to continue this argument debate despite my persistence. I'll give you some peace and sign off for the night.

 

[blackcatsmith]

Tangent: I checked the back of my Wiz and sure enough it's a 175g G9i. I also a bit of the bead got cut/knocked/broken off. My question is this: How damaged can a disc be and still be legal? Is my G9i legal regardless of the finger nail size chunk of the bead that is missing?

 

[jrawk]

thats fine. the original purpose of the bead was to add durability to the bottom of discs when plastic was not durable. disc designers discovered soon after its an easy way to tune an understable disc to be more stable.

 

[mashnut]

Lots of criticisms of the PDGA but no actual ideas on how they would like every single run of every disc from every manufacturer to be tested without doubling PDGA dues...

 

[Craton]

Everyone on this thread has been arguing and arguing, and no one has seen the BLATANT, OBVIOUS answer staring you all in the face: Myth Busters. We send this to the real science men, get them to whip plastic of diff. flexibilities and rims etc. at dead pigs and ballistics gel. Maybe get GG to do the throwing, or WS, and then they can make a machine to do it too. Bingo. Sports exposure, demonstration of safety concerns, violence, everything.

 

[Kp0c]

Everyone on this thread has been arguing and arguing, and no one has seen the BLATANT, OBVIOUS answer staring you all in the face: Myth Busters. We send this to the real science men, get them to whip plastic of diff. flexibilities and rims etc. at dead pigs and ballistics gel. Maybe get GG to do the throwing, or WS, and then they can make a machine to do it too. Bingo. Sports exposure, demonstration of safety concerns, violence, everything.

Beilliant

 

[garublador]

That's still reactive. When I find a mold I like, I stock up. I'm throwing discs from three, four, five years ago. If I get nicked for a firm disc, are you going to add "the run of ESP Zones from three years ago that are firm and concave" to the list? I've been throwing that same Zone since I got it, along with the other five I have. It is stamped PDGA Approved, and you're telling me it's illegal? You're saying the PDGA Approved stamp means nothing. Your method has already failed.

I don't understand why the general attitude of the PDGA is "let's wait and see." You are the governing body. GOVERN!!!! Stop the mistakes before they reach general population.

I realize I'm a real pain in the ass to you, and I don't see that stopping in the future. I believe this will do more to make you think than carrying on "business as usual". I thank you for being willing to continue this argument debate despite my persistence. I'll give you some peace and sign off for the night.

I'm OK with them being reactive on stuff like this as long as they have some way to enforce the rules. As it is right now the only reaction they can have is to tell the manufacturer to stop selling those discs. Because there's no sure fire way to prove what run a disc came from any disc in the field is still OK until you prove that it's out of spec. They can only sort of enforce this rule they came up with and it absolutely is their responsibility to enforce it because they're the ones who run the approval process.

There really is no good way to give TD's a way to enforce these rules in the field. They'd have to prove that the discs are out of spec and that would involve coming up with a certification and calibration process for the instruments they send out. My guess is that's more difficult than forcing manufacturers to uniquely identify each run of their discs.

So, while it may be up to the players to blow the whistle on discs that might not meet the specs, it's up to the PDGA to enforce the rules on the manufacturers. It's not up the the players and TD's to enforce the rules at tournament time unless it's pointing out a run/batch number of a recalled disc.

 

[tbird888]

That's where you and I differ. I'm guessing the G9i issue doesn't affect you. I prefer firm putters. I sought out the firmest Wizards I could find and eventually found what is, to me, the perfect balance between firmness and grip. Now I'm finding out that the putter I've been throwing for months, the putter with which I would want to compete, is illegal despite it being stamped as legal. I've gone back to my old Wizard that is softer, and I don't putt nearly as well. I don't want to find the putter that makes me more confident only to be told I can't use it, especially when it's an approved mold. I also have noticed mine softening considerably with use. It's the whole reason I sought out firmer putters. They season to feel amazing but don't get so soft that I can't still get a clean release. It's probably soft enough now that it would pass the flex test, but I still can't use it because it's a "too firm G9i". I would happily leave my new G9i's at home if I could use my softer, seasoned ones. I wouldn't want to throw a new disc in a tourney anyway...

I know I've thrown out a lot of ideas about testing discs from each run that would raise member dues (because they're so inflated now :| ), but I've also stated that the standard could be refined. I've been hit by a firm putter, and it didn't hurt. If the PDGA can change OB rules to make play more exciting/fair, they should be able to reexamine a rule that's generality has created a hinderance for some of its players. I know Craton's Mythbusters post was sarcastic, but something like that could put a lot of complaints/concerns to rest.