[Gateway] Medium Wizards No Longer PDGA Legal?

[discddwn]

I'll be using G9i's at a tourney this weekend and I'm positive I won't be called on it. Not a lot of wizard or forum love down here so no worries

 

[Bardu]

Yeah I plan on using my mediums too. And I'm pretty confident no one is going to challenge them. But I wouldn't exactly want a flex test performed on mine.

 

[BirdmanCR]

If they call you tell them to pound sand. Then flip it over and show them the "PDGA approved" molded into the back .

 

[tbird888]

If they call you tell them to pound sand. Then flip it over and show them the "PDGA approved" molded into the back .

So...cheat?

 

[garublador]

So...cheat?

It's not cheating, check adevuyst's post about it. Gateway has volunteered to not sell the discs, but no one has made a ruling that they are not legal to use in tournament play.

 

[tbird888]

It's not cheating, check adevuyst's post about it. Gateway has volunteered to not sell the discs, but no one has made a ruling that they are not legal to use in tournament play.

Sounds like cheating to me unless you have a beat up stiffy that will pass the flex test.

I sent an e-mail to the technical standards board to try and find out exactly what the deal was. Here is the email I received in return:

Hi Adam,

Thanks for your inquiry. No discs that fail the flexibility standard are PDGA approved. If you like, Gateway will exchange your stiff disc for one that will pass. Yes, stiff drivers are less safe, but people do drive with putters. It's not clear that the complexity of adding a sliding scale for the flex of drivers versus putters would be an improvement, but the Technical Standards committee is looking at that as a possibility. The TSC is also considering ways that the flex standard can be better enforced, but the best solution is for manufacturers to do the necessary quality control to ensure that they only release discs that comply with all PDGA standards. We'd rather have the leaky faucet fixed. Failure to comply places manufacturers at risk of being assessed penalties, especially for repeat offenders. I'm unaware of any petition to change the flex standard, but it is noteworthy that players overwhelmingly supported keeping the flex standard in a poll several years ago.

Jeff Homburg (#1025)
PDGA Technical Standards Chair

I was unaware that there was a poll several years ago to remove or update the flexibility standards...does anyone have any other information about this poll? I'm guessing this rule has been in question before since there WAS a poll. Also, Does anyone know if I can use the putters in my bag as they stand? Or do we have to get used to different discs for competition?

 

[garublador]

Sounds like cheating to me unless you have a beat up stiffy that will pass the flex test.

Now we're back around to the TD having a certified scale at the event because the PDGA has not determined that these discs are illegal. Once that happens it's almost guaranteed that the TD will have to spend the whole time testing discs, which will also be the last time he or she will bring a certified scale to a tournament. How happy would you be if someone asked for your entire bad to be checked and it noticeably bent even 30% of your discs? That's probably what you'll get if the rule is enforced this way. The PDGA apparently recognizes that, which is why they're looking for a better way to enforce this rule.

Here's the post I'm talking about, because apparently it's too hard to find:

This is the case. I just got this email back from the owner of gateway:
________________________________
The pdga has never made any sort of ruling on the discs,,, unless it's something I'm not aware of.

We simply agreed to taking them out of production while the pdga works on improving the rule for putter flexibility.

Have you ever seen a players drivers checked for flexibility at an event?


David McCormack ( owner Gateway Disc Sports)

No one has been able to produce a statement where the PDGA has ruled these discs illegal to use in tournaments.

 

[otnavuskire]

Now we're back around to the TD having a certified scale at the event because the PDGA has not determined that these discs are illegal. Once that happens it's almost guaranteed that the TD will have to spend the whole time testing discs, which will also be the last time he or she will bring a certified scale to a tournament. How happy would you be if someone asked for your entire bad to be checked and it noticeably bent even 30% of your discs? That's probably what you'll get if the rule is enforced this way. The PDGA apparently recognizes that, which is why they're looking for a better way to enforce this rule.

Here's the post I'm talking about, because apparently it's too hard to find:

No one has been able to produce a statement where the PDGA has ruled these discs illegal to use in tournaments.

If a disc isn't going to pass the flex test, it's illegal. Simple as that. Yes, TDs won't be able to test them to determine it, but that doesn't make them legal.

I'm relatively new to the sport of disc golf, but I've noticed something that seems to be lacking from it. I'm not a ball golf fan, but something that I admire about that sport is that much of rule enforcement is based on the honor system. I frequently read about players turning themselves in for rule violations. Many of the conversations I read about rules on the board here are how you can get around them.

Not saying I agree with the flex rules, but rules are rules, and as long as they're in place, they should be followed.

 

[discgolfcrazy]

i thought this read was dying

 

[Scoot_er]

Most Open World Champions = Cheaters

 

[garublador]

If a disc isn't going to pass the flex test, it's illegal. Simple as that. Yes, TDs won't be able to test them to determine it, but that doesn't make them legal.

So all discs are illegal until every single spec has been proven out at every tournament? The "PDGA Approved" certification means that it's legal until they say otherwise.

I'm relatively new to the sport of disc golf, but I've noticed something that seems to be lacking from it. I'm not a ball golf fan, but something that I admire about that sport is that much of rule enforcement is based on the honor system. I frequently read about players turning themselves in for rule violations. Many of the conversations I read about rules on the board here are how you can get around them.

How often have you heard of a ball golfer turning themselves in becasue they measured one of their balls or clubs after a tournament and found it to be out of spec? How many of them do you think check every single spec for every club and ball they use? Or do they do it the same way we do and assume all of their equipment is legal until the governing body says otherwise?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Actually, a single golf ball cannot be out-of-spec for weight, just if the cover is cut or it somehow got squished by getting run over by a semi perhaps. Overweight balls are legal as long as the ball model is on the USGA list of conforming balls. Up to 3 out of 24 test balls can be overweight and still pass the test to get certified for the list. So some balls might have a ball or two slightly overweight out of every dozen they buy. And those 1 or 2 overweight balls would be legal even if weighed.

 

[wake911]

So all discs are illegal until every single spec has been proven out at every tournament? The "PDGA Approved" certification means that it's legal until they say otherwise.

Agree. I am unable to weigh and flex test my discs. I have to assume the manufacturer has created in spec items. They sold me items that say approved. Unless a recall is announced I am in no way knowingly using illegal equipment. I do not know if my discs will pass, any of them. So I can't play with any disc?

 

[adevuyst]

It's not cheating, check adevuyst's post about it. Gateway has volunteered to not sell the discs, but no one has made a ruling that they are not legal to use in tournament play.

Right. From what I gathered they're only illegal if someone weighs it at a tourney and tells you that particular disc is too stiff.

 

[tbird888]

Here's the post I'm talking about, because apparently it's too hard to find:

No one has been able to produce a statement where the PDGA has ruled these discs illegal to use in tournaments.

I found that post. I just thought that a statement directly from the PDGA Tech Standards Chair was a more valid source. The bottom line is that if you're knowingly throwing a disc in a tourney that doesn't comply to standards, as G9i's have been found to not comply, then you're throwing illegal equipment. That's cheating whether someone calls you on it or not.

What his statement doesn't take into account is what happens when said "too firm" disc seasons and softens. What if a broken in G9i will pass the flex test? Is it still illegal? These kinds of gray areas, and PDGA's lack of desire to refine them, are what really bothers me in this thread.

My current G9i is now softer than the First Run McPros I just got on Friday. Does that mean it's no longer illegal?

 

[Cgkdisc]

Some plastics become more brittle over time so I suspect some older discs wouldn't meet the flex test any more but would have when newer.

 

[garublador]

I just thought that a statement directly from the PDGA Tech Standards Chair was a more valid source.

But no one can produce a statement that says the discs are illegal. If the source of the rules and approval process says they're legal, they're legal. The rule is for the manufacturers to follow, not for the players to follow. By the time the disc is in your hand the disc is legal unless recalled.

I totally agree that the frustrating part is that the PDGA just isn't enforcing these rules at all, especially since the claim is that players overwhelmingly wanted the rule. They apparently just wanted to appear as if they're doing what the players want without actually doing anything.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If you buy a PDGA Approved disc, you can presume it's legal. However, let's say it's a Prodigy disc recently impacted by a recall to replace overweight discs. If a player in your group challenges your disc and it's determined to be overweight, you are subject to a minimum 2-throw penalty up to DQ for throwing it in competition. Fair or not, that's how the current rules are written.

 

[tbird888]

But no one can produce a statement that says the discs are illegal. If the source of the rules and approval process says they're legal, they're legal. The rule is for the manufacturers to follow, not for the players to follow. By the time the disc is in your hand the disc is legal unless recalled.

Going to bold this line again (and the next sentence) to politely disagree with you. Because it's come out that G9i's are too firm, they are now illegal. Since Jeff states that Gateway will replace your stiffy for a softy, it's obvious that the discs shouldn't be used in competition. What this statement doesn't cover is a used G9i that may be soft enough to pass the flex test. However, it is illegal to compete with a new G9i. If it weren't, Gateway wouldn't be complying with the PDGA asking him to stop production, and they certainly wouldn't be willing to trade you a passer for your failer.

...Thanks for your inquiry. No discs that fail the flexibility standard are PDGA approved. If you like, Gateway will exchange your stiff disc for one that will pass. Yes, stiff drivers are less safe, but people do drive with putters...shortened for TL;DR reasons...
Jeff Homburg (#1025)
PDGA Technical Standards Chair

Even though Dave was giving golfers what they want, he wasn't following the rules. I personally applaud him for producing the G9i's, especially since (as he - and Scoot_er and many others - stated earlier) it's a widely known fact that just about every World Champ has won their championship with firm putters. I imagine if you tested the special run of Nate Doss fundraiser Challengers from last year, they wouldn't pass. My putting G9i is now softer than the McPro Aviars I just received. Will Discraft come under fire for the Challengers? No. They were a very small run and will never make their way to retailers. Will the McPro/KC Pro Aviars get tested? No. Innova owns the PDGA (prove me wrong).

I totally agree that the frustrating part is that the PDGA just isn't enforcing these rules at all, especially since the claim is that players overwhelmingly wanted the rule. They apparently just wanted to appear as if they're doing what the players want without actually doing anything.

I know it seems like I'm standing up for this ruling, but I'm not. I hate that the PDGA enforces their rules so inconsistently. It's why I don't give them my money every year anymore, whether I compete or not (I once said I would renew just to "do my part"). They want to act like they're the governing body of the sport, but they want players to blow the whistles. "Here are the rules. Enforce them on your own. We don't want any part of it." What a huge joke! This isn't a rule, it's a standard. It's a quality measure that manufacturers should follow. It's something that should be addressed prior to discs hitting shelves so that slapfight threads like this don't have to happen.

I would be interested in seeing a video of the G9i failing the test to see how badly it failed. I would also like to see the other discs that we've brought up in this thread tested as well. If they're going to take a line of plastic off the market for a manufacturer, I want to see that plastic fail with my own eyes. Since this is admittedly done so rarely (by the Tech Standards Chair who does it in his very little spare time), there's no reason that there shouldn't be a camera set up to record the findings.

 

[tbird888]

If you buy a PDGA Approved disc, you can presume it's legal. However, let's say it's a Prodigy disc recently impacted by a recall to replace overweight discs. If a player in your group challenges your disc and it's determined to be overweight, you are subject to a minimum 2-throw penalty up to DQ for throwing it in competition. Fair or not, that's how the current rules are written.

You say that, but Homburg says that if they don't pass, they're illegal.

Player 1: "Nice disc you have there. Feels great. Where'd you get it?"
Player 2: "I got it last year from Gateway."
Player 1: "Think they have any more?"
Player 2: "Nope. The discs in this plastic were deemed to be too stiff, and the plastic was discontinued."
Player 1: "Really? I want to challenge that you're using an illegal disc because the plastic's too firm."
Player 2: "But it says 'PDGA Approved'."

I don't see that ending well...