minimal discs and you

[Blake_T1]

Hardcore minimalism is good for learning, not necessarily so good for scoring.

minimalism in general is targeted at those who are still working their way up the learning curve.

learning all the shots and how to function with a few reliable go-to models. for someone who hasn't done this, they tend to see a short-term improvement in scoring as their skills develop.

the idea is to reach a point where you have found the limits of what can be done with minimalism (very few people actually reach this point).

while you will find many very good pros that will carry 12 molds, generally the bulk of their shots falls on 3-4 molds and the other 8 are meant for when they attempt that zany wtf shot to give a shot at a deuce on an otherwise considered "un-deucable" hole. e.g. a 50' tall anhyzer over the trees to crash through the canopy rather than hitting the mouth of a tunnel, etc.

Didn't someone say, "throw the shortest disc that will get there", or something to that effect?

yes, i have said this many times, but it's more of a general tip that is for those who are working their way up the learning curve. it's more a matter of convincing people to throw mids/putters far and is sort of like the equivalent of hitting a 5-iron full on vs. choking up on a 3-wood. the slowest disc yields the greatest accuracy, but after a while you do notice times and situations where discing up is advantageous. e.g. i tend to disc up on short holes and swing a wide hyzer with a faster disc (mid/fairway driver) rather than try to throw my putter straight if that line is available.

 

[tigel]

Thanks everyone for the really good replies.

This is really opening my eyes and showing me the importance of a midrange. before I thought it was good for 100-200 range shots (mid range...) but never understood because my advanced/pro guys I play with throw their putters 90% of the time at that range. Of course its all situational.

I wont be bias for minimalism. There are times on every course I throw where I can say to myself "I would rather throw X on this shot". So I can see where having a couple more discs for situational shots makes more sense then just having to deal with it on the spot. I should also add I haven't played in any tournaments the past month either.

I'm actually wondering if the new Mako by innova might be a good disc for me at this stage. The only midrange I have thrown have been an E warrior 182g and my buzz (not sure on weight). I'm starting to now really enjoy the wide diameter discs as of lately. The rims on them are just too weird for me. I also don't own any other disc that its been compared to, so this could just give me a reason to get a new disc... I'm sure the lady would like that.

 

[tgm]

I've only been playing since last spring (late winter) and I keep reducing my discs month by month. I've been playing the last couple weeks with just mid/putter and it's really made me appreciate a good mid. I'm starting to put more mids and less drivers in my bag now too since I get so much more control and distance lately. And many of the courses around here aren't that long. I'm better throwing a full mid than powering down a driver.
Unless it's a really long hole, I drive with my Buzzz (and sometimes Roc) now. Then my second shot is either the Buzzz or my non-putting Wizard (to keep my putting one less beat up). I keep a Predator in my bag but rarely need to pull it out for a shot all day. And for the long holes, it's either the Surge or Cyclone depending on how open it is (the Cyclone for tighter holes). I also like to keep a base plastic version of my Buzzz and Cyclone in there for water shots since I'm still not confident I won't lose my discs (and have a few times). And a few holes where I just know I'm going to throw right into a tree, or Hastings (CP Adams) where all the roads chew up my discs.
Sometimes I'll only throw three discs the whole round but it's nice to have the extras to pull from when needed. And the bag is nice to hold my water bottle. When we play minimal disc rounds now I throw these three discs: Wizard, Buzzz, Roc. Two good mid shots is just as good as a killer driver and short chip. And usually, if it's close enough to get there in one, it's close enough for a mid to get there.

 

[tigel]

I actually went out and bought a mako haha. I only played 8 holes because IT GETS DARK AT 6 NOW? WTF? But I really liked it and hope to test it out more.

Also on a completely different subject real quick, I love seeing more and more people with the "twin cities" or "minneapolis, mn" location I'm really excited to be moving there this January so I can hopefully play with you guys!

(okay back to why mids are awesome)

 

[Golf-Distance]

Playing with a teebird will teach you a lot. Like blake was saying about most shots falling on 3 or 4 disc. Watch Avery or Barry throw on video. A lot of the time they're reaching for a teebird, leopard, or an eagle.

That's because these disc are predictable and they're comfortable with them. Eagles have helped me throw wraiths further, teebirds and preadators are similar (pred's are longer and more stable), and a leopard is just like a slower valk. So may advice would be to learn these disc and then "club up".

 

[domromer]

I gotta agree with an earlier post that mentioned disc companies fueling the fire about needing many discs. I think the pros score would be not a whole lot different if they were forced into extreme minimalism. I also think that the "I pay a lot of different courses" is a cop out when it comes to explaining why people need to carry 20 different molds. Knowing the shit out of a few molds would make up for that one shot on that one course where you need that certain disc. Disc golf is an easy and relatively cheap outlet for our extreme consumerism.

 

[discspeed]

I gotta agree with an earlier post that mentioned disc companies fueling the fire about needing many discs. I think the pros score would be not a whole lot different if they were forced into extreme minimalism.

Check garublador's post above...It is expensive for DG companies to make different molds (10-30K), offer different plastics, and make good weight ranges. I said it once and a I'll say it again...if they were all about making money they would just have a few discs in dx all 170ish and that would be it. Innova's starter sets have 3 discs...Check out some ball golf starter sets for comparison. Garublador is totally right that Discraft makes much more money selling Ultrastars than DG discs. It pays for their R&D. You are correct about the best players scoring near the same with few discs, but the ams would be much worse. And the pros would spend more $$ not less on backups for those fewer discs. Talk to people that played in the late 80s/early 90s and you'll understand how good we have it now. Consumer demand drives the companies and they respond. They are not fueling the fire...I can think of at least 4 ways they could market in a way to try and do this and they aren't doing any of them (sell sets with more discs, create more categories besides putter, mid, fwy, distance, market discs for specific distances, sell "lines" of discs that are supposed to go together, etc.)

I also think that the "I pay a lot of different courses" is a cop out when it comes to explaining why people need to carry 20 different molds. Knowing the shit out of a few molds would make up for that one shot on that one course where you need that certain disc.

I didn't say people, I said touring pros. Have you ever asked a sponsered touring pro about this? I once questioned Feldberg and he was able, without looking at his bag, to tell me exactly what he used every one of his discs for (close to 50). I'm sorry, but when you play in all weather, all altitudes, and in every other variable course to course its not nearly as simplified as you claim. And Feldberg knows the shit out of Aviars, Rocs, and Eagles...but he's not into making it hard on himself to have to execute a shot that requires 95% perfection when he can get much better percentages and error forgiveness with another disc.

Disc golf is an easy and relatively cheap outlet for our extreme consumerism.

Bullshit. Innova supports itself by dominating the market, Discraft supports itself by selling Ultimate discs, Gateway by making putters and the other companies probably haven't even seen the money back that has been invested yet. If that statement had any validity there would be many more people trying to get in on it.

 

[Frank Delicious]

I want to do as much as possible with as few molds as possible.

It's just debatable what that means but for me I have break it out into:

Overstable driver

Max D driver

Controlled D

Fairway

Midrange

Putter

 

[domromer]

I gotta agree with an earlier post that mentioned disc companies fueling the fire about needing many discs. I think the pros score would be not a whole lot different if they were forced into extreme minimalism.

Check garublador's post above...It is expensive for DG companies to make different molds (10-30K), offer different plastics, and make good weight ranges. I said it once and a I'll say it again...if they were all about making money they would just have a few discs in dx all 170ish and that would be it. Innova's starter sets have 3 discs...Check out some ball golf starter sets for comparison. Garublador is totally right that Discraft makes much more money selling Ultrastars than DG discs. It pays for their R&D. You are correct about the best players scoring near the same with few discs, but the ams would be much worse. And the pros would spend more $$ not less on backups for those fewer discs. Talk to people that played in the late 80s/early 90s and you'll understand how good we have it now. Consumer demand drives the companies and they respond. They are not fueling the fire...I can think of at least 4 ways they could market in a way to try and do this and they aren't doing any of them (sell sets with more discs, create more categories besides putter, mid, fwy, distance, market discs for specific distances, sell "lines" of discs that are supposed to go together, etc.)

I also think that the "I pay a lot of different courses" is a cop out when it comes to explaining why people need to carry 20 different molds. Knowing the shit out of a few molds would make up for that one shot on that one course where you need that certain disc.

I didn't say people, I said touring pros. Have you ever asked a sponsered touring pro about this? I once questioned Feldberg and he was able, without looking at his bag, to tell me exactly what he used every one of his discs for (close to 50). I'm sorry, but when you play in all weather, all altitudes, and in every other variable course to course its not nearly as simplified as you claim. And Feldberg knows the shit out of Aviars, Rocs, and Eagles...but he's not into making it hard on himself to have to execute a shot that requires 95% perfection when he can get much better percentages and error forgiveness with another disc.

Disc golf is an easy and relatively cheap outlet for our extreme consumerism.

Bullshit. Innova supports itself by dominating the market, Discraft supports itself by selling Ultimate discs, Gateway by making putters and the other companies probably haven't even seen the money back that has been invested yet. If that statement had any validity there would be many more people trying to get in on it.

You sorta didn't get any of my points but you seem like the type that's always right so I'm not gonna bother to argue. If Dave needs 50 I guess we all do.

 

[discspeed]

You sorta didn't get any of my points but you seem like the type that's always right so I'm not gonna bother to argue. If Dave needs 50 I guess we all do.

You sort of didn't support any of your points, so no I guess I didn't get them. I also made a point to describe Feldberg as a "touring pro" and made a clear distinction between him and the rest of us. I just don't see the paranoid, hippy, "the man" angle in our sport. If explaining myself and supporting the things I say with examples makes me "right" then I guess I'll have to live with that. :roll: 8)

 

[domromer]

So you mean support my opinions with more opinions? Then can I be right?

 

[jgillia]

Or instead of drifting the thread into a pissing match we could just go back to talking about minimalism and why you think its helpful or not

Id try to add something insightful but its all been pretty much covered. Minimalism can be a great thing some people like it some dont. I think though that once you learn how to manipulate the flight of a disc and really learn how they fly then it doesnt really matter if you have 4 molds or 20 molds. Personally I think minimalism will hurt you eventually. Living here in Austin where we have over 20 courses in the area and coming up on over 30 it is very helpful to have those few extra molds because of the drastic differences between the courses.

 

[VictorB]

Minimalism is a fairly simple concept to me:

Practice minimalism and learn how to shape shots, and work discs in a different manner than they may have been intended for (ie throw a sidewinder on a hyzer 350', throw a predator on a turnover that doesn't come back)

Once you acquire true 'disc skill' (a term I coined around here, basically being able to pick up any disc and make it do what you want by manipulating nose angles, wrist roll, intentional OAT) then minimalism becomes less important.

This is why pros can carry so many discs, where players on a 'normal' level would be better off carrying fewer molds and developing their disc skill.

 

[IllustratorVir]

For me, when it comes down to the money and I am in the woods I need 3 molds: Teebird, Core, Aviar PERIOD. However that is only one type of course/hole layout.
In the wide open I COULD use a Teebird, but a Boss will make that open shot EASIER and more efficient.
With a hard hyzer I COULD hyzer a Teebird, but the Firebird makes that line easier and less prone to error of release.
With a 400 foot anhyzer I COULD execute a perfect line shape with a Teebird, but a gentle release with a Vision makes that shot easier, etc etc.

The examples can go on and on. For a pro, they COULD use -mold- for every shot, but there are other discs that make it easier on them. However, its only easier because they know their game well enough on a physical level to be able to throw the different molds efficiently. That Boss, Firebird, and Vision are close to useless to me if I can't line shape well. These discs (Understable and Overstable molds especially) really shine when you can shape them. Throw that understable Roadrunner on a 375 foot bullet, or helix that firebird to the green, or throw that long S turn with a boss to knock an additional 50 feet off your drive. But that's only useful if you learn to shape lines and learn your personal game, which takes time and minimalism will help that, as already addressed above.

For me, personally, my bag is: Max D, Overstable Control, Stable Control, Understable Control, Midrange, Putter.

 

[tigel]

Minimalism is a fairly simple concept to me:

Practice minimalism and learn how to shape shots, and work discs in a different manner than they may have been intended for (ie throw a sidewinder on a hyzer 350', throw a predator on a turnover that doesn't come back)

Once you acquire true 'disc skill' (a term I coined around here, basically being able to pick up any disc and make it do what you want by manipulating nose angles, wrist roll, intentional OAT) then minimalism becomes less important.

This is why pros can carry so many discs, where players on a 'normal' level would be better off carrying fewer molds and developing their disc skill.

This is a really good point. I'm not terrible by any means (average even to +2 on any course near by) and I think that's what confused me. I would be set on my bag. I knew how my discs threw and I thought thats how just those discs threw. Then I would try a disc here and there and be able to anny a overstable disc on purpose from putting some OAT on it, or how I could make a flippy disc go a mile because of a hyzer flip. I'm not making myself sound like a pro by any means but I think the reason I stopped wanting a huge bag was because I can throw whatever line with any disc now that I've learned "disc skill".

I agree 100% other discs make lines easier and that really makes me understand why people dont carry just a few molds. It makes a lot more sense to me now.

 

[jsun3thousand]

Once you acquire true 'disc skill' (a term I coined around here, basically being able to pick up any disc and make it do what you want by manipulating nose angles, wrist roll, intentional OAT) then minimalism becomes less important.

Patent pending, patent pending, patent pending!

 

[sweeper]

Living here in Austin where we have over 20 courses in the area and coming up on over 30 it is very helpful to have those few extra molds because of the drastic differences between the courses.

I really strive to carry as few molds as possible. I find it helps my game, but I have to agree with this... not the Austin part, I've only been to Texas once and that was before I started playing disc golf, but that I find myself adding certain discs for certain courses, and taking them out for others.

My basic bag has 5 molds, but I have 2 or 3 others that I might add because it makes a certain course a lot easier. Like most things I have no discipline and self-control. I'm comfortable with that.

 

[Fizzy]

I understand minimalism being a great learning tool. I also can understand why it can help your score: you're often better of playing a disc you're extremely comfortable with than playing a disc that is slightly more appropriate for the shot. However, I don't understand the point of being obsessive about it. I carry a bunch of molds: Aviar, Zone, Buzzz, Meteor, Teebird, Predator, Boss, Surge, XCal + a few other random molds I experiment with. However, when it comes down to it, I play %90 of disc golf with the Aviar, Buzzz, Teebird, and Pred, with an occasional Boss when things get long. Is there really any reason for me to be more purest than this? When I want to throw a turnover shot with some tail wind, why not bust out the Meteor? When I want to putt into some horrible head wind, why not play the Zone? When I want to throw a fade shot into some turbulent kickin' wind, why not play the XCal? Question: does anyone think my scores would improve by taking these rare/situational use discs out of my bag?

 

[garublador1]

I think the pros score would be not a whole lot different if they were forced into extreme minimalism.

While that's true, it's worth noting that "not a lot different" (1-2 strokes/round) is the difference between a 1020 rated disc golfer and a 1030 or 1040 rated disc golfer. Who would you expect to win a multi-day event? We need fewer discs to learn skills, they need more discs to get that extra edge.

 

[VictorB]

Once you acquire true 'disc skill' (a term I coined around here, basically being able to pick up any disc and make it do what you want by manipulating nose angles, wrist roll, intentional OAT) then minimalism becomes less important.

Patent pending, patent pending, patent pending!

haha not really, I meant more my local area, not DGR boards (but people should use it more here too!)