Need some help with my form!!!

[sidewinder22]

1. Your arm is too high, lower it to door knob height or even lower. Really lead with your butt/weight pulling the door frame through the arm as if it were a string being pulled taut like ball on string.

2. Front foot toes should be inline with door frame/hand, stance basically inside door frame(or outside). Looks like your stance is crossing the door frame/rounding/hugging yourself. This should really open up your upper arm angle from chest/shoulders/not hugging yourself.

3. Move rear foot over toward right side of tee/door frame with #2 above. Turn rear foot like 20-30 degrees closer to target. Your rear knee should stack right over toes looking down at it and move targetward from foot/instep. Your rear foot looks too backward and your femur/knee turn backward instead of being leveraged targetward. Looks like your rear knee extends and stacks over the ankle instead of toes/forward.

4. Move rear foot forward/targetward about a foot. Lower arm position will help you move your stance further away while maintaining balance and leverage and leading weight/butt first.

 

[slowplastic]

^ I've learned how to spot stuff in throws relatively well, but I still can't do that stuff from a drill.

 

[sidewinder22]

^ I've learned how to spot stuff in throws relatively well, but I still can't do that stuff from a drill.

Even harder when the drill is sideways, but probably since I created the drills, I find it really easy to spot issues in them.

 

[Dnolff1991]

When shifting the lower spine onto the front leg does the pelvis feel like it drops down or does the pelvis stay on the same plane?

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[sidewinder22]

When shifting the lower spine onto the front leg does the pelvis feel like it drops down or does the pelvis stay on the same plane?

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Feels like it drops/falls/lower center of gravity, gravity = weight force. After the shift you may feel the front hip rise a la "the move part 2".

 

[Dnolff1991]

https://youtu.be/jn1EEvLNYzc

After practicing in The field with no improvement I came home frustrated and tried a hundred different tweaks to feel some of the things mentioned in other threads and in sidewinders videos. While I can feel the tension in the left butt/thigh area during the door frame drill it quickly disappeared because I don't think I was using it properly. Then there were terms like pushing into the brace and feeling the rear hip recoil and everything, so I watched some ken griffey Jr batting breakdown and seen that he lifts his front leg and falls forward while keeping his hands in the same spot (winding up) then his rear hip/thigh/knee went forward creating more tension in the upper body so that there was nothing left to do but let the body unwind as the weight left the rear. After seeing this I think it clicked, so I tried something new... For me at least. I thought of pushing my rear side forward with my foot while maintaining the coil in the torso from the reachback, and I ended up with the above video. And for the love of god I hope I'm on to something for my sanitys sake.

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[slowplastic]

I think you are pushing the rear side clockwise in a rotational manner too much though. You need to think about pushing the rear side straight to the target during the backswing, and since your stance is offset, that direction will be underneath you and nearly through your spine and still behind you.

If you watch Griffey, when he lifts his front leg he closes off his pelvis like 10-20 degrees to the pitcher. Then the motion as he drops into the plant keeps that closed angle. You can see his rear hip is still internally rotated as his front foot is hitting the ground. The front hip is the braced/doesn't move forward at all any more and that's when the rear hip starts coming around and the pelvis opens up toward the pitcher.

In that video I think you're doing what I've been doing for a while, and am working my way out of. You're getting up on the toes of the rear foot in the X-step, and then that balance kind of forces you to step to the left side of the tee pad on the plant. This prevents you from loading into the rear hip as much because you're on top of the femur rather than able to be more "inside" of your hips and turn deeper into that rear hip. Also when you're up there it just feels natural to drop to the side rather than keep striding more targetward. It's also really hard to get the front hip to clear right if you stride to the left too much, it closes off the plant and you get jammed up slightly.

What I'm saying is if you film from behind, see if your balance is on your rear toes rather than stacked over the rear foot. This may be preventing you from turning deeper and later into the rear hip, and causing you to drift to the left with your plant step. This would also be the cause of opening up as I was describing above, because you can't turn into the rear hip for as long.

I know I consciously need to tell myself to turn deeper into the rear hip during field work all the time. It usually results in 20' longer throws a few times while I get it to click, without feeling like I'm putting any more power on the shot.

 

[Dnolff1991]

Well if I'm doing anything u have been doing then it sounds like I'm on the right track haha. I know u have said ur distance is nowhere as far as HUBs but u still have way more distance than I do.

As long as I'm thinking of the rear leg correctly I can start to make changes like u said with the head over the toes and striding more left than targetward versus the head over the heel and striding more targetwards which even without video I'm sure ur right and I'm doing the first one.

I wasn't using the rear leg like that at all before. I was letting the rear leg be more passive and would turn back into it and feel that tension then fall onto the plant foot and extend the plant leg to get my hips to turn and I would lose all tension in the rear side as soon as I dropped. I was really thinking of the shift behind you concept all wrong I think.

I guess the big question is: am I using the rear side more correctly than before?

I don't want to explore this for the next six months and find out I was completely wrong haha which if this is correct then I have been wrong for the last two years

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[slowplastic]

Yeah I just compared to your previous videos and definitely in the right direction. Before as soon as your front leg was down, your rear leg was weightless and left the ground. It would just swing up to provide a counterweight but it wasn't giving you any leverage to put your spine onto your front leg. Before you were thinking about upper spine, now it looks like you're thinking about lower spine.

Now you are doing as I said and you repeated correctly...getting off the rear leg and to the front leg, just the balance is slightly overtop of the rear toes and drifts to the left side instead of targetward.

This change is why you are now feeling that tension and having no choice but to start the shot, whereas before you really had to try to swing and the left leg was just countering the throw to prevent falling...now you will need to think of turning deep into the rear hip, transfer the spine/mass to the front leg, and then its secondary function will be to provide counterweight as you are swinging.

 

[slowplastic]

Also focus on this balance. Don't get discouraged with distance changes. Best to throw discs that can take a little torque but don't need more than 70% to fly...I like speed 5ish mids and 7ish fairways like Buzzz style discs and Teebird/FD/Leo/etc. type discs. Stuff that will give you nice neutral flights and glide well when you hit it right, but you don't need to smash on and come into the shot too fast or with too wide of a stride. Narrower is quicker, even though wider feels more powerful but that is wrong without correct form.

When your balance is getting better like this you'll likely throw your old distances but with 20-40% less effort. Over a few sessions the distance will creep up a bit, as long as you aren't throwing a lot and have muscle fatigue. What I've really noticed is my consistent line drive distance has crept up, even if my max D hasn't gotten farther really because the wall I'm at is brutal. But what I have noticed and you will notice, is you will hit your lines way more often, with less effort, and yank shots such a small % of the time. This weight shift and brace is the fundamentals to getting to the farther distances, but it also is throwing more "properly" so even if you shank a shot it won't be that bad once this is your new normal. I've noticed I can hit gaps SO much more consistently than before.

 

[slowplastic]

As long as I'm thinking of the rear leg correctly I can start to make changes like u said with the head over the toes and striding more left than targetward versus the head over the heel and striding more targetwards which even without video I'm sure ur right and I'm doing the first one.

The way SW22 marks up the videos from behind teepad view, is when weight is on the rear/left foot he draws a vertical line. The line from the edge of the heel should be touching the edge of your left butt. Likely instead there is a few inch gap to your butt, so the edge of your butt is over your toes. My clarification is that your head will be over your front foot, with rear butt over rear foot.

 

[Dnolff1991]

Awesome info in all that. Thanks a ton. I'm probably going to only play with an Axiom alias (speed 5) and an Axiom crave or inspire. Won't even touch anything over speed 9 for awhile.

Thankfully almost all the snow is finally gone here in Michigan so I can get outside to work on everything. Until last week we had 1 foot of snow everywhere haha.

Thanks for clueing me in on how sidewinder marks stuff up from behind the tee, I was trying to figure out the significance to some of them for awhile.

I can't believe how many times I've read your forum on the shift from behind to throw all shots better and nothing clicked until last night. I had looked at an image of McBeth in there with him planted and the rear foot totally everted with an arrow towards the target and was like "how in the hell is he shifting from behind here? He is already facing the target pretty much" and now I see that the rear foot and knee are directed straight down his line and is directly underneath him and BEHIND the plant foot. And then there's all the things sidewinder says in his videos that are pretty clear. It just amazes me that until it clicks in your own mind someone can explain it clear as day but u still won't get it.

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[slowplastic]

Yeah that's why I made that thread...because I felt stupid that I didn't get it until that point even though it was explained clearly. It just takes something different for everyone, and once it clicks then it makes perfect sense. Incorporating it right is another thing...but getting the concept to click is step one. Sounds like you've made that critical jump and you're able to see and feel it. It is so fundamental to all athletic motions now that I get it better. It's why players with other high level sports backgrounds can do so well so soon.

 

[Dnolff1991]

Is it acceptable to put the heel of the rear foot down during the x step as long as I push from the instep/ball of the foot?

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[sidewinder22]

Is it acceptable to put the heel of the rear foot down during the x step as long as I push from the instep/ball of the foot?

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Yep, probably help your posture/balance in the stride/buttwipe from hershyzer. In last video, you are turning back too early/behind your rear foot, into the backswing and striding/leveraging your weight funky. Need to turn back inside/forward of rear foot. Same thing on the plant leg, you are rotating past/over your front foot instead of inside front foot/behind it. In buttwipe drill, as you stride/fall/sqaut targetward on rear leg keeping your butt on wall, this should be actually rotating you into the backswing/rear hip as your center is moving targetward. You appear to be rotating back without the lateral move or before it.

 

[Dnolff1991]

Ok cool. I asked because its alot easier for me to fully turn back but HUBs article and video stressed to keep the heel up

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[sidewinder22]

Ok cool. I asked because its alot easier for me to fully turn back but HUBs article and video stressed to keep the heel up

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Sounds about right. Most top pros keep the rear heel up because they are moving faster and the dynamics match up. When learning a slow x-step I do recommend the heel come down on the ground, and make sure your instep drives the heel back up/targetward. Double Crush the Can Drill is the standstill exaggeration of the both heels and redirection of your weight/momentum.

You don't normally see people walking only their toes, it's actually much harder/less efficient to walk without your heel on the ground to settle/stabilize your weight, and then the toes/ball push the heel/weight/CoG forward. More change in acceleration happens while walking than running.

Now to run fast and efficiently, you don't normally see people with their heels on the ground, as a heel on the ground would be applying the brake in front of their CoG and you don't want any weight to settle in a sprint, you want smooth continuous flow of your momentum and no redirection, so there's really not much change in acceleration while sprinting compared to walking.

So in a fast lateral run up into x-step/hop the rear heel really shouldn't come down so your momentum flows, but you do want the plant heel to come down to settle your weight and be able to quickly and efficiently redirect your momentum from forward to rotational.

 

[Dnolff1991]

That makes aLot of sense. It probably didn't help that I exaggerated the heel up as I generally try not to have a fast run-up so I can get the timing right.

I've tried the crush the can drills but after trying about 10 to 15 times last year my wife yelled at me because in Michigan you get ten cents for every can returned haha. So I had to do those drills without the can which isn't entirely helpful with no idea of how the can would be crushed.

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[slowplastic]

^Try a tennis ball or another ball type that squishes easily that size. Don't roll your ankle or use a rigid ball like a baseball. If you're in balance you should just end up on top of the ball easily.

 

[sidewinder22]

They don't accept crushed cans? lol