Par Talk

[Hyzflip10]

Pro-level par is the only real par, just like Open is the only real competition.

However, people prefer having a shot at winning erstaz competition over being humiliated in real competition. So, we have something like eleventy-eleven divisions available.

When playing a course outside of an event, the competition is the par for the course. People prefer having a chance to be under (or within sight of) a softer par instead of being humiliated by real par.

And, just like all those other divisions need to describe who is not allowed to enter them so they are consistent from event to event, the skill-level pars should be labeled as something other than just "par" and be consistent from course to course.

In the future when the open division can sustain itself and separate itself from the rest of the game, maybe you can make a case that Open is the only real competition. It is safe to say that Open is the top level competition, but players in other divisions are also competing up to their level of skill.

It seems harsh to say other people don't want to be humiliated if they aren't playing open. Since manufacturers, as well as pro divisions rely on am divisions to subsidize their prize pools, I think it is a reasonable expectation for am players to be able to compete against others of their skill level. Either they progress through the ranks to pro / open divisions, or they stay in the game and stay in their division. I don't see it as a matter of not wanting to be humiliated, I see it as people wanting to enjoy themselves in exchange for their support of the game.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Pro-level par is the only real par, just like Open is the only real competition.

Go a step further. Par doesn't change based on the skill level of the player. Thus, there is no "pro-level par."

 

[Cgkdisc]

Go a step further. Par doesn't change based on the skill level of the player. Thus, there is no "pro-level par."

Yes there are pars for more than one skill level in ball golf and that concept has been borrowed for disc golf. There are separate pars for each set of tees on a ball golf course. In most cases, the par is the same on each tee distance, but that means each set has par standards for that skill level. Those standards for Juniors, Men and Women are right in the USGA handicap manual guidelines. Ball golf course designers also have their own unpublished guidelines for Seniors, Rec Men and Championship levels. For example, if a hole is a par 3 from the forward junior tees, if the juniors play the blue or white tees on that hole their par might be 4 for their skill level if posted or indicated on the scorecard.

 

[Steve West]

Agreed...although the use of your "Pro-level" rankles me because I know of a lot of players who call themselves "pros" and are not exactly 'the best' (as I assume you're alluding to).
...

Yeah, "Pro-level" isn't the best adjective - in today's reality. I sometimes forget I'm not in the future when we've gotten rid of the current stupid idea that winning $5 or paying a higher membership fee makes you a pro, but winning a car doesn't.

I wasn't referring to "the best", either. At least not the very best of the best. I should have just said expert.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Yes there are pars for more than one skill level in ball golf and that concept has been borrowed for disc golf.

No, there are not. Par may change based upon the tee, but not based on the skill level of the player. If you play from the gold tees on a par 5, it is a par 5. That does not change just because you aren't a better player.

 

[Cgkdisc]

No, there are not. Par may change based upon the tee, but not based on the skill level of the player. If you play from the gold tees on a par 5, it is a par 5. That does not change just because you aren't a better player.

Gold par on those tees is specific to that skill level. If a woman or junior plays those gold tees, their par on the scorecard from that tee may be higher on some holes depending on the handicap guidelines. Here are the current guidelines for effective lengths and the manual has Junior par ranges also. Sometimes you'll even see the separate pars for the skill level on tee signs. Disc golf has a wider range of distance off the tee based on skill levels which provides even more reasons for different pars on the same tee to pin, that is if you care to be "fair" about it.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Gold par on those tees is specific to that skill level.

No. "Gold" is not a skill level, "gold" is a tee location. It doesn't matter the skill level of the player. Par remains the same for that tee.

 

[Cgkdisc]

No. "Gold" is not a skill level, "gold" is a tee location. It doesn't matter the skill level of the player. Par remains the same for that tee.

Only on the tee sign and only for players who wish to play against that par. In their great wisdom, ball golf did recognize long ago that par on a given hole depends on the skill level of those playing it or the skill level that particular tee-to-green was designed for.

 

[PMantle]

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

Only on the tee sign and only for players who wish to play against that par.

Once again, no. The par doesn't change on the gold tee just because you don't want to play from that tee. And, get this, the par stays the same even if someone steals the tee sign. The sign isn't what makes the hole a par 5, it's just one of the things on which the par is recorded.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Once again, no. The par doesn't change on the gold tee just because you don't want to play from that tee. And, get this, the par stays the same even if someone steals the tee sign. The sign isn't what makes the hole a par 5, it's just one of the things on which the par is recorded.

You can protest all you want but the USGA, Golf Architects and PMantle's post above shows that different pars are assigned for different skill levels. It's especially important for calculating your score cap using Equitable Stroke Control when reporting your scores for handicaps after you play a different set of tees than your skill level.

 

[DG_player]

You can protest all you want but the USGA, Golf Architects and PMantle's post above shows that different pars are assigned for different skill levels. It's especially important for calculating your score cap using Equitable Stroke Control when reporting your scores for handicaps after you play a different set of tees than your skill level.

You're confusing course rating and slope with par. Those are the only things used in calculating your handicap.

It's very rare for a course to assign different pars for different skill levels, they almost always adjust the difficult by the distance of the tee box. About the only time you see it happen is for an older course with a par 5 where they simply lack the room for a gold par 5 distance, so they use a shorter distance and call it a par 4. Occasionally you will also see it for ladies tees if the layout of the hole is such they can't fit an appropriate teebox.

The idea that just re-labeling par for different skill levels is common practice in golf is complete bunk.

 

[Cgkdisc]

You're confusing course rating and slope with par. Those are the only things used in calculating your handicap.

It's very rare for a course to assign different pars for different skill levels, they almost always adjust the difficult by the distance of the tee box. About the only time you see it happen is for an older course with a par 5 where they simply lack the room for a gold par 5 distance, so they use a shorter distance and call it a par 4. Occasionally you will also see it for ladies tees if the layout of the hole is such they can't fit an appropriate teebox.

The idea that just re-labeling par for different skill levels is common practice in golf is complete bunk.

The point here is that par for a single combination of tee to green will have different hole indexes for handicapping and resulting unpublished pars depending on which set of tees that tee to green combination is part of. While it's true that Gold Par is for gold level players and doesn't change on the sign regardless who is playing it, the hole index for handicapping that hole will be different for different skill levels playing those gold tees when submitting their score for handicapping. You just don't see it since the calculations are in the background. In some cases, those averages will round off to the same par and in other cases it will be a one-stroke different par if it were printed on the scorecard or tee sign.

Disc golf does not have the luxury of 3 or 4 tees for specific skill level like ball golf on most courses and players of a wider skill range will play the same set of tees on a regular basis. A reasonable rule of thumb among course designers is the imputed par for red level players playing a legit gold tee hole is to mentally add one to the posted par, and likewise, gold level players playing a legit red tee should mentally consider their par as one less than what's posted. Thus, there many legitimate imputed par 2s for gold level players playing the occasional red level course or at least a few red level holes that remain on a course played in tournaments.

 

[PMantle]

Disc golf does not have the luxury of 3 or 4 tees for specific skill level like ball golf on most courses and players of a wider skill range will play the same set of tees on a regular basis.

And if it did, this thread would be 2 pages long.

 

[Steve West]

...

The idea that just re-labeling par for different skill levels is common practice in golf is complete bunk.

OK, but does that mean disc golf can't do it?

 

[Noill]

just that it probably shouldn't...

my opinion... and I'm just a mod on a dg website so......

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

The point here is that par for a single combination of tee to green will have different hole indexes. . .

Never mind that you have been making utterly false assertions to support that "point" for multiple pages now.

Next thing we know, you'll be claiming that the loss of a disc is itself a penalty and that there is, therefore, no need to assess penalty throws!

It will be a sad day for disc golf if you are ever allowed near any sort of rules committee.

 

[brutalbrutus]

...isn't he already on the rules committee?


nvermind I thought you quoted Steve, lol.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Never mind that you have been making utterly false assertions to support that "point" for multiple pages now.

Next thing we know, you'll be claiming that the loss of a disc is itself a penalty and that there is, therefore, no need to assess penalty throws!

It will be a sad day for disc golf if you are ever allowed near any sort of rules committee.

Doof certainly applies in your comments despite the evidence not just provided by me. And yes, one second you have a disc, and several seconds later you don't. Sounds like enough penalty to me, especially for rec players.

 

[DG_player]

While it's true that Gold Par is for gold level players and doesn't change on the sign regardless who is playing it, the hole index for handicapping that hole will be different for different skill levels playing those gold tees when submitting their score for handicapping. You just don't see it since the calculations are in the background. In some cases, those averages will round off to the same par and in other cases it will be a one-stroke different par if it were printed on the scorecard or tee sign.

That's factually incorrect. Regardless of your skill level or current handicap, your handicap is calculated based on the index and slope for that particular set of tees. If a scratch golfer and a duffer play together from the gold tees, their handicaps are both calculated off of the course rating and slope for that set of tees. That's the whole purpose of the handicapping system, so people of different skill levels can play each other fairly. If there were multiple sets it wouldn't work and wouldn't be an effective way to compare skill levels.

The only time par ever gets factored in, is to calculate the maximum score you can record on a hole. If you are a very low handicap, I think 10 or under, you're limited to double bogey. If you're above that it's just a number. For instance I think the most i could card on a given hole with my handicap was an 8.