PDGA Updates Gender Policy

[IHearChains]

Oh good grief. Nitpick and cherrypick rare examples all you want, but that does not in any way refute my base assertion, nor my solution to the problem (perceived or real) of men saying they are women competing in women's events.

How rare are these examples? Can you give us some more information about how you define "rare"?

There are other scenarios addressed earlier by blake833 that you continue to ignore, for example XXY genetics instead of XX or XY. Are those also too rare to be considered worthwhile for your discussion?

 

[davetherocketguy]

Doctor: it's 2019 and you've been in a coma since 2000.

Patient: really? I have an opinion...

Doctor: stop - that's hate speech

 

[GMcAtee]

I applaud the PDGA for dealing with this before it becomes a problem. So sad they have to waste time on this though.

 

[SD86]

There are other scenarios addressed earlier by blake833 that you continue to ignore, for example XXY genetics instead of XX or XY. Are those also too rare to be considered worthwhile for your discussion?

I did address that in an earlier post. Did you not read it? Or did you not like it so you're pretending I never addressed it?

 

[dorseymatt]

Doctor: it's 2019 and you've been in a coma since 2000.

Patient: really? I have an opinion...

Doctor: stop - that's hate speech

At the risk of not being chill and no-selling your ha-ha, many people have always felt the opinions you're referencing are hateful or harmful. It's just that now more people feel empowered to share that they feel hurt by those opinions, because there is less fear of losing a job, getting beat up, etc.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

And for you to tell me what to do and what to think (though worded as 'reflect') was not only an insult, but a typically Leftist tactic against Conservatives that must be pushed back against as the disingenuous and dishonest attack insult and attack that it really is.

Lol... stop and think... is a leftist attack on conservatives.

....and sorry but every post has this destined for the LF where I refuse to go because of this same non productive schoolyard arguments.

 

[Streets]

Man...SD hasn't been this riled up since the last Mold Minimalism thread...

 

[Three Putt]

But this has happened and is happening with more frequency since these policies have been implemented. They're just not nationally reported because journalists are bad people. You'll roll your eyes at this source but it's just a convenient compilation of links to 25 "non-issues.". But just because something isn't likely to happen doesn't mean you shouldn't take precautions. It's not likely that I'll be murdered in my sleep if I leave my door unlocked at night but I still lock my doors because I don't want to enable that possibility. Simply saying, "nothing will happen probably b/c murder and stuff is illegal anyway" is a really naive way to regard people.

Chuck Berry was secretly taping women in the bathroom waaayyy before I knew what transgender meant. It's not new. Most of the incidents on the list didn't involve anyone who was or claimed to be transgender, just pervert dudes doing what pervert dudes have been doing since windows were invented. It doesn't show that there has been an increase in these incidents, just that these incident continue to occur. Which makes sense since I'm not sure why an acceptance of transgender individuals would have decreased the number of Peeping Tom's there are out there.

But that's the rub of the transgender bathroom issue. The problem isn't transgender people. The problem is perverts. People want to punish transgender people to solve a pervert problem. It doesn't seem like a real effective fix to the issue, does it?

Of course the leap there is that transgender people ARE perverts and deserve the public shame of whatever humiliation we want them to endure if they are guilty of the unspeakable horror of needing to pee while in public. :| Which really has nothing to do with them playing disc golf in a gender-protected division. Unless they have to pee during the event I guess.

 

[zenbot]

Reopening thread. Please keep your discussion respectful and on topic.

 

[lines]

I would be upset if I had to compete against people with XY chromosomes if I had XX chromosomes.

 

[blake833]

And that's a big part of the issue here. Some here want to make it a fuzzy issue, but at the very core, the very base, what I'm saying is the core issue: all the surgery, hormone therapy and genital mutilation in the world does not change the DNA of a person and their physiology.

Remember that one time I tried to tell you about how physiology can be a mixed spectrum of male and female traits all at once based on which segments of DNA activate or fail to activate to turn a person male? That's not a "Leftist position," it's just science, what may now be taught in some 6th grade classrooms (but really probably 9th grade biology).

X and XY *are* the core determinant Truth here, despite the noise to try to change and/or obscure that. But it's the bottom line. The rules are the rules; Wysocki either cheated or he did not; XX is female and XY is male, or it is not. And we all know it *IS*, New York Times fake news citations notwithstanding.

XX and XY aren't as core as you think they are (it might blow your mind to know that some people who's bodies look very female, genitalia included, actually have an XY genotype).

There's no real scientific take on the New York Times, but if sometimes journalism can lead to conclusions that support one side more than another. It doesn't indicate bias to point out that someone is lying when they are provably lying.

 

[IHearChains]

I did address that in an earlier post. Did you not read it? Or did you not like it so you're pretending I never addressed it?

Right, you acknowledged it's true, and then "addressed it" by continuing to act as if it doesn't exist. :clap:

 

[teemkey]

Let's turn this discussion on its head.

Lulu is an avid disc golfer and PDGA member. A year ago was rated 880 when she took a radical step to improve her game -- She began taking male hormones. After a year of hard work on the course and in the gym, she's added 30 lbs. of muscle, can throw over 400', and her rating is up to 940. She also decided to grow a beard and register for FPO Worlds.

So what should the TD and/or PDGA do with this bearded lady?

 

[Nova P]

Let's turn this discussion on its head.

Lulu is an avid disc golfer and PDGA member. A year ago was rated 880 when she took a radical step to improve her game -- She began taking male hormones. After a year of hard work on the course and in the gym, she's added 30 lbs. of muscle, can throw over 400', and her rating is up to 940. She also decided to grow a beard and register for FPO Worlds.

So what should the TD and/or PDGA do with this bearded lady?

There is a section of PDGA Policy on Eligibility for Gender-Protected Divisions which covers this, albeit tangentally:

B. Transgender – Female to Male

Players who were assigned female gender under the criteria detailed above and who are taking hormone treatments to increase testosterone levels are no longer eligible to compete in gender-protected divisions.

These players must inform the PDGA when hormone treatments commence by submitting a completed PDGA Gender Reclassification Form to the PDGA Medical Committee.

After review by the PDGA Medical Committee, the gender designation of the applicant will be changed to male in the PDGA database.

I don't think you mentioned transition from female to male in your example for Lulu, though. If she's just taking hormones (steroids, testosterone, etc.) to bulk up and stomp the other women, then that's not really a transgender thing. That's just plain old performance-enhancing drug abuse. That sounds like a matter for the Disciplinary Committee or possibly a joint investigation by the Medical Committee and the Disciplinary Committee.

 

[VictorB]

That's just plain old performance-enhancing drug abuse.

Powerlifting organizations that drug test don't differentiate between therapeutic/transitional hormonal regimens from performance enhancing. If powerlifting doesn't differentiate, why should the PDGA, where strength and explosive ability isn't 100% of the game? I think when you start differentiating the two, then you're opening the door for discrimination problems.

 

[brutalbrutus]

WHat this thread needs, is a bit of levity to calm everyone down...

I have YYZ chromosomes...

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

Hypothetical thought problems and "worst case" (worst as some would define it) scenarios should matter much less than creating an inclusive space where all can compete. Rules aren't perfect because being a human being in this plants is real messy. Rules should be written assuming the best in people while also having mechanisms to address the worst, just as Nova P just outlined.

 

[lines]

I don't think you mentioned transition from female to male in your example for Lulu, though. If she's just taking hormones (steroids, testosterone, etc.) to bulk up and stomp the other women, then that's not really a transgender thing. That's just plain old performance-enhancing drug abuse. That sounds like a matter for the Disciplinary Committee or possibly a joint investigation by the Medical Committee and the Disciplinary Committee.

agreed.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

Also, the logic that cheating will be more rampantly attempted by transgender people is an argument situated in viewing them as deviants to the biological order in the first place.

 

[lines]

Hypothetical thought problems and "worst case" (worst as some would define it) scenarios should matter much less than creating an inclusive space where all can compete. Rules aren't perfect because being a human being in this plants is real messy. Rules should be written assuming the best in people while also having mechanisms to address the worst, just as Nova P just outlined.

The reason rules exist is not for the 'good people'. Rules are made for those who like to win at all costs. Rules establish an equal starting point.