PDGA Updates Gender Policy

[DavidSauls]

How about the limited number of exceptions to the XX just play in any of the open divisions? Or make them all open divisions? An XX chromosome only division isn't much of an XX chromosome only division if you allow exceptions to XX chromosomes.

It never claimed to be an XX-only division.

It's a "female" division, with "female" defined, for these limited purposes, as XX and/or a few other situations. They're not defining "female" for the dictionary or the overall population, just for this usage. Which works well enough, since 99% of the participants will be considered female by virtually any definition.

Just as they defined "masters" as players over 40 years old, which may not be the definition of "master" that anyone else uses. Or define "throw", for that matter.

The PDGA could define it as XX-only, of course. Among the reasons not to are that by adopting IOC-like standards, they don't have to devote a lot of time and effort and debate to what has been a non-issue.

 

[SD86]

I mean, I get upset, too, when my 6th-grade understanding of biology gets blown out of the water. .

I laughed way too hard at this. :hfive:

It may be taught in sixth grade, but makes it no less true: human females have XX chromosomes and human males have XY chromosomes.

Are you trying to say that that is not true?

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

It may be taught in sixth grade, but makes it no less true: human females have XX chromosomes and human males have XY chromosomes.

Are you trying to say that that is not true?

It can be true and not be fully determinant. You want it to be fully determinant because it's the only Truth.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Some of you people sure type a lot. And that's saying a lot coming from me...

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

Some of you people sure type a lot. And that's saying a lot coming from me...

I have idea of what you speak.

 

[SD86]

It can be true and not be fully determinant. You want it to be fully determinant because it's the only Truth.

And that's a big part of the issue here. Some here want to make it a fuzzy issue, but at the very core, the very base, what I'm saying is the core issue: all the surgery, hormone therapy and genital mutilation in the world does not change the DNA of a person and their physiology.

XX and XY *are* the core determinant Truth here, despite the noise to try to change and/or obscure that. But it's the bottom line. The rules are the rules; Wysocki either cheated or he did not; XX is female and XY is male, or it is not. And we all know it *IS*, New York Times fake news citations notwithstanding.

 

[Nova P]

Some of you people sure type a lot. And that's saying a lot coming from me...

It takes only a few words to say something that's dead wrong, but it takes many, many more words to explain something.

 

[DavidSauls]

Effectively you can. The PDGA will be (and has in the past) taking in good faith that a players declaration is truthful- anything else can be construed as discriminatory. This is what i get from my discussions with a Medical Committee member.

That's more a matter of what you can get away with, than what the ruling would be, isn't it?

The PDGA takes your word for it when you give your age when you first sign up. Barring someone filing a complaint, you can play as the age you've given.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

And that's a big part of the issue here. Some here want to make it a fuzzy issue, but at the very core, the very base, what I'm saying is the core issue: all the surgery, hormone therapy and genital mutilation in the world does not change the DNA of a person and their physiology.

XX and XY *are* the core determinant Truth here, despite the noise to try to change and/or obscure that. But it's the bottom line. The rules are the rules; Wysocki either cheated or he did not; XX is female and XY is male, or it is not. And we all know it *IS*, New York Times fake news citations notwithstanding.

Yes because cheating offers the same complexity as gender. And that's the intellectual sadness. You'd rather bark fake news when the bell rings than deal with complexity. A little political correctness would do you well.

 

[SD86]

A little political correctness would do you well.

In other words, I am to accept your side of the argument without question, or else. The typical Leftist position.

To hell with that.

 

[_MTL_]

In other words, I am to accept your side of the argument without question, or else. The typical Leftist position.

To hell with that.

No, what he is saying is one side is saying "here's my scientific research that agrees with my opinion" why you are saying "I don't need science, here is my opinion."

If you provided research to support your opinion, that's called an adult conversation. Without it, it's merely what you are saying you hate - accepting an argument.

 

[dorseymatt]

It may be taught in sixth grade, but makes it no less true: human females have XX chromosomes and human males have XY chromosomes.

Are you trying to say that that is not true?

I am trying to say that it's an oversimplification and not always true.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

In other words, I am to accept your side of the argument without question, or else. The typical Leftist position.

To hell with that.

It's not a bar argument with sides as Fox News makes everything out to be. It's recognizing the complexities of gender based on scientific, psychological, and social research. It's about creating a more just society for more persons. Some might have to revise their thinking in the process, but so is life.

The table at which decisions about gender definitions in relation to social contexts including sporting competitions are and will be made has many seats, but "$&@# this, my Truth is unalienable," does not qualify one for a seat. And you're not owed an apology for that reality.

 

[dorseymatt]

In other words, I am to accept your side of the argument without question, or else. The typical Leftist position.

To hell with that.

Rather than accept a position you disagree with, I guess I'd rather you do some genuine reflecting on why you hold the position you hold, why you are so upset about it, and why you feel so entrenched.

It's uncomfortable, but, ultimately, I like learning new things about subjects and changing my views when appropriate. So when other people show the ability to do that, I find that admirable. I wouldn't expect you to jump from one side to the other on this issue, willy nilly, but it'd be nice if you could open yourself up to the idea that you might have more to learn on this subject, or that your position could become at least a little more nuanced.

And, genuinely, I'm sorry I implied you are a bot or a troll. I know you're just a regular person in an internet debate, and it's easy to get way more heated than you would be if we were speaking in person over a beer or whatever.

 

[SD86]

No, what he is saying is one side is saying "here's my scientific research that agrees with my opinion" why you are saying "I don't need science, here is my opinion."

If you provided research to support your opinion, that's called an adult conversation. Without it, it's merely what you are saying you hate - accepting an argument.

Are you really saying that I am going to have to go cite research that proves human females are XX chromosomed and males are XY chromosomes?!?!? Really?!!!

 

[SD86]

I am trying to say that it's an oversimplification and not always true.

How is it not true?!?!?! And sometimes the 'simple' answer is the right answer. You're just trying to make the lines fuzzy to obscure the truth.

 

[VictorB]

It's like a rectangle is a square but a square isnt a rectangle

 

[_MTL_]

Are you really saying that I am going to have to go cite research that proves human females are XX chromosomed and males are XY chromosomes?!?!? Really?!!!

No one is disputing that.

This conversation is if someone chooses to have a gender reassignment from male to female and their ability to compete in a female division.

If the standard was "choose whatever you want to do, we don't care" your argument of XX and XY is the correct one. But that's not what is happening and this point of view simply is irrational on the subject.

 

[dorseymatt]

And I hate to keep coming back to the mutilation thing, but you never walked that back, SD, and I'd like to give you another chance. You never know who you're interacting with, especially on a computer. Maybe someone in this tread is transgender. Maybe I am. You really don't know. I doubt you would say that to a person face-to-face after they explained to you that it is at the very least insensitive and hurtful. I don't mean that in a tough-guy sense. I mean, as a human, I bet you actually do care about people's feelings. So I guess I thought I'd just bring this up once more.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

How is it not true?!?!?! And sometimes the 'simple' answer is the right answer. You're just trying to make the lines fuzzy to obscure the truth.

What is your investment in this particular truth? And saying "because it is true" doesn't fly, both scientifically and ideologically.