Poll - Beginners learning backhand

[Dale1]

Did you begin learning backhand with bent elbow or straight arm?

 

[taylor714]

I personally learned it with a bent elbow. I have a good friend who learned with a bent elbow, but changed over to a straight. I guess it's all whats easier.

 

[seanzerelli]

Its harder to learn the snap part of the throw if you're trying to get a long reach-back. Its harder to incorporate this and still keep the disc close, not releasing it early.

 

[Timko]

I think Bent is the way to go as well. You can teach people using the right pec drill, then teach them to move from left pec to right pec, then teach them to rotate their hips/shoulders back while keeping the elbow bent and the disc close to their body.

 

[Dale1]

Its harder to learn the snap part of the throw if you're trying to get a long reach-back. Its harder to incorporate this and still keep the disc close, not releasing it early.

This puzzles me. I don't have a long reach-back. I also don't try to keep the disc close to my body because as I rotate my hips and shoulders the disc follows a fairly straight line towards the target - it may have a bit of an arc but a long gentle one. To follow this straight line the disc HAS to move farther and farther from my body.

If I kept the disc close to my body through most of the throw the disc would always end up going way right, because at rip point my shoulders seem to be at about a 45 degree angle to the trajectory of the disc.

Notice in the following series of images how the disc gradually moves away from the body. This is for straight-arm backhand.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii51/DaleL-album/backhandoverhead1-4-1.gif

This is a series of images I made in a few minutes, so these may not be totally accurate as regards the body's mechanics. I will try to do another series for bent elbow to see if I can learn something about that approach.

It would seem that much of the posting regarding backhand comes from the bent elbow viewpoint, but without the poster actually saying that it can be confusing to us backhand newbies.

I find that straight arm backhand works much better for me, so far.

 

[seanzerelli]

Ideally yes, you would want to incorporate a longer reach-back. it will get you more distance, but the extra motion will require more coordination to time it with the hit(where snap occurs). Bent elbow isn't so much a different throwing style, but an increased focus on the hit where you get all your snap. It tends to separate the speed from snap throwers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1QVLQriAlM

Right about 1:00 you can see he uses a straight(ish) reachback, but as the disc passes his chest his elbow bends, and the snap/hit occur as the disc is ejected in a blur. Would you say Coda is speed or snap dominant? I'd say speed, but I'm not so good with these technical things.

 

[black udder]

I don't know anybody who keeps their arm straight during the entire throw. You have a straight reach back or a bent reach back, but the important piece of both methods is how far back you get your elbow.

When people talk about keeping the disc in a straight line and close to the chest, what you really want is to not arc the disc around you. By doing that, you lose your power. In Aaron's topic about new throws, Bradley brought out conversations which might make it easier to visualize the throw.

Basically, you reach back and face away from the target, you pivot your hips and pull the disc into your chest (this is like a skater pulling their arms in to spin faster - and it does the same thing), as your chest comes to around 45 degrees from the target, you pull as fast as you can. The goal is to sync your chest facing forward and your elbow reaching near extension. The rotational momentum that you build up by spinning and keeping that disc in tight to your chest then translates to an ejection out in front of you.

The big issue here is timing. It's difficult to time it perfectly and you don't always need to have the perfect hit to get good distance.

You can get good distance with just an arm pull in combination with reasonable snap.

 

[JR]

The picture Dale made shows what Feldy was talking of in The Champ's Way DVD about utilizing only two out of three joints in the arm and losing power that way. Agreed with BU.

 

[twmccoy1]

Bent elbow for sure. You get lots more snap that way.

 

[Dale1]

I did another illustration of a backhand from overhead, this time with bent elbow.

I can see one important element of this approach: as the body turns and the elbow straightens, the disc tends to go in a straight line for a short distance until the hit, instead of in an arc as with straight-arm. Very interesting!

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii51/DaleL-album/backhandoverhead-bent-1-4.gif

 

[black udder]

That drawing isn't correct. The disc should be coming into a complete bent elbow and stay that way until after step 3 and into step 4.

By performing as your drawings indicate, you don't get maximum snap or power.

 

[bcsst26]

That drawing isn't correct. The disc should be coming into a complete bent elbow and stay that way until after step 3 and into step 4.

By performing as your drawings indicate, you don't get maximum snap or power.

Agreed but I have to say that I love seeing diagrams like this. It helps put everything together.

 

[JR]

By getting the upper arm almost straight at the target at step 2 one gets a need for tremendously quick leg pivot, hip twist and shoulder turn to get facing the target. At step 2 if one stays chest 90 degrees left of the target or facing up like in the current picture one is gonna need a hip explosion to face the target.

 

[black udder]

That drawing isn't correct. The disc should be coming into a complete bent elbow and stay that way until after step 3 and into step 4.

By performing as your drawings indicate, you don't get maximum snap or power.

Agreed but I have to say that I love seeing diagrams like this. It helps put everything together.

It only puts the top together. I agree that drawings help though. Just wish they looked more correct

 

[Dale1]

OK, that brings up a question I've been meaning to ask about bent elbow.

Does your elbow bend more as you bring the disc forward - up to the point where you have to unbend it to generate power and snap? It would have to I suppose if you were bringing the disc across your chest.

That would account for the drawings being incorrect.

I recall reading about bent elbow where someone said if you did it right you would sometimes hit your nipples. That would seem to indicate that you do bring it across your chest for a short distance. Why not start with the elbow completely bent?

Is "chopping" the elbow suddenly straightening it?

I will re-do the drawings supposing that to be true and see how it plays with you bent elbow throwers.

Thanks for the feedback! Very helpful. :wink: Please let me know if I need to make any more changes.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii51/DaleL-album/backhandoverhead-bent-1-4b.gif

 

[Timko]

OK, that brings up a question I've been meaning to ask about bent elbow.
Does your elbow bend more as you bring the disc forward - up to the point where you have to unbend it to generate power and snap? It would have to I suppose if you were bringing the disc across your chest.

Curl your wrist and put it in front of your shoulder. This is an extreme example, but you see how much your elbow is bent when your wrist is at your elbow. Now put your curled wrist on your left pec. Note that the inner angle of the upper and lower arm is greater. Less angle = disc being more to the right of your body.
Generating power with the elbow unbending = Yes.
Generating snap with the elbow unbending = No. To generate snap, you have to have the wrist curled as the elbow unbends. There's a reason why it's also referred to as the "whip." Your wrist needs to be the last piece that fires.

I recall reading about bent elbow where someone said if you did it right you would sometimes hit your nipples. That would seem to indicate that you do bring it across your chest for a short distance. Why not start with the elbow completely bent?

While I think it's important to start with the elbow bent, if it's totally bent, your mucles and tendons responsible for the chop (the rapid uncoiling of your arm) are tight from the get-go, rather than being loose, then tight, then loose.

Is "chopping" the elbow suddenly straightening it?

Yep. One of the things we aren't encorperating in these drawings is what the wrist is doing. That's vital to understanding snap.

 

[black udder]

I don't know of anybody throwing straight arm and not bending it at all from reach back to pull through. As I understood it, bent arm technique only refers to reaching back with a bent arm instead of a straight arm, once you start the throw, it's all the same.

I'll see if I can mock something up... what are you using Dale?

 

[JR]

The farther the elbow is toward the target the higher the amount of degrees in the elbow bend are.

 

[Dale1]

Less angle = disc being more to the right of your body.

What does that mean, "disc being more to the right of your body?"

I'll see if I can mock something up... what are you using Dale?

I'm using Xara X. (vector graphics program)

 

[Timko]

Less angle = disc being more to the right of your body.

What does that mean, "disc being more to the right of your body?"

Get your arm in the right pec drill position. Note the inner angle of your upper and lower arm. Now put the disc on your left pec, and note the inner angle of your upper and lower arm. The larger angle is on the left pec, and the smaller is on the right. So as you move from left to right, the inner angle shrinks.