[Question] Potential tech standards changes?

[vw02]

Blizzard discs.

 

[beereakfast]

i think he anticipated you writing this. hold your breath people.

I hope they hurry up. I cant hold my breath for ever....
Turning blue here

 

[mashnut]

The first thing that needs to happen is that the PDGA needs to stop having so much outside influence at BOD meetings that are generally closed door. Furthermore when an outside influence (especially one that has a stake in it) makes such a presentation you should NEVER make a motion on site and say that you will take it under advisement and discuss it in depth at a later date after the decision makers actually have time to consider the repercussions of such a decision are. Essentially what is happening is that Innova is trying to make the PDGA it's submissive in it's relationship which is totally ridiculous. PDGA listen up...You run this, not them do not buckle to the influence of a money hungry corporation. Granted I have my own opinions about Innova and all parties involved but I would say the same thing if any manufacturer came in and tried to say this stuff. This entire circumstance reeks of conflict of interest and collusion. And saying that Innova and USDGC are fully behind this, of course they are because they are essentially the same thing. That would be like them saying Hero disc, Millennium or Disc Mania are in agreement with it. Or if Discraft said DGA or USADGC supports it. Either way the lie of saying that its for the sustainability of the sport is complete and utter BS. No one says that the pros have to throw these wide rim drivers. At a certain point thru attrition if they are out throwing the holes they will begin to disc down naturally, but that doesn't mean that the other 98% of the people who actually play the sport don't need such a disc to get there. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what some of these old pros have done but making such a recommendation gives the perception that you are old, out of touch with your customers and living in the golden age of "when I used to play and all we had was a trash can lid". And to think that the governing body responsible for the protection and growth of a sport is preposterous. That would be like the NBA or PGA folding to Nike and saying from here on out athletes can only use "this type" of shoe that oh btw Nike holds the patent for. BECAUSE that is exactly what the PDGA has done in the past and is making the motion to do currently. PDGA kick all these outside and extra people out of your BOD meetings, discuss the issues brought to the table and guess what, you don't HAVE to always make a decision right then and there. Beyond that speak to the people, you represent them, find out what they are thinking NOT only what the major manufacturers have to say. AND if you can't manage to do that, GUESS WHAT? that's why there is BOD elections each year. Keep doing what you're doing and you may no longer find yourself there!

Did you read the rest of the thread? It's been brought up many times that Innova brought up this exact same point years ago. The PDGA took it under serious consideration then too, and ended up not doing what Innova suggested. I just don't see the problem with someone with ties to the sport bringing something up to the governing body and them agreeing to actually think about it. It's not like they agreed on the spot or were "submissive" to Innova.

I just have a really hard time believing that there's some major conspiracy behind a suggestion that Innova has made before, in fact it's refreshing to see that they're willing to revisit an issue that would now cut into their current profits.

 

[New013]

clearly Innova Disc is being controlled by the Illuminati and the Feds. the wide rims of the drivers coupled with there high angular velocity and frequency are screwing up the surveillance capabilities of big brother.

hell Innova Disc and Illuminati have the same number of letters... and they both start with I and a double letter.

 

[drblam]

clearly Innova Disc is being controlled by the Illuminati and the Feds. the wide rims of the drivers coupled with there high angular velocity and frequency are screwing up the surveillance capabilities of big brother.

hell Innova Disc and Illuminati have the same number of letters... and they both start with I and a double letter.

Dan Brown is going to sue you!

 

[stubborn puppet]

Two small additions to the conversation:

1. I've seen plenty of ball golf courses in public parks and other public areas where it is very likely a ball could get into an area where an "innocent bystander" could be hit.

2. I feel sad that we live in a world where we actually have to consider enforcing rules that inhibit or restrict the majority, to prevent the inconsiderate and/or idiotic from causing harm.

This isn't me taking a side or even buying in to any presumption that safety is even the issue being taken up by Mr. Duvall. Just two thoughts that keep crossing my mind.

 

[redrum]

Maybe someone else has made this point (I haven't read every post) but many other sports have gone through this very same technology driven problem. In Baseball, for example, biomedical technology including advances in strength training and PEDs have led to bans on PEDs and changes to equipment to keep existing ballparks from becoming obsolete. Aluminum bats are simply not allowed in MLB and have had to be restricted at the college level because they were allowing the college players to hit the ball too far. Now the baseballs have been "adjusted" to restrict flight as well (these changes can be reversed if pitchers become too dominant). Pitchers can't use cerain substances that makes their curve ball a little too effective. When I was still playing Softball, balls were restricted to COR 47 in most amateur leagues and maybe in others. In golf, there are restrictions on clubs and balls to restrict golfers from hitting the ball too far as well as a rule that limits the number of clubs that you can carry (which disc golf would do well to adopt IMO). A recent rule change will go into effect in golf at the end of the year to prevent a certain putting technique because it is too effective. Before that became an issue, the shaft length on putters had to be restricted due to a similar issue.

Some players have innate advantages that must be tamed as in basketball, where tall players are prevented from gaining too much of an advantage by the 3 second rule (and now the 3 point line) and good ball handlers are prevented from running out the clock by the 5 second rule (and now the shot clock).

I think it would do disc golf well as a sport for: 1) its players to acknowledge or at least understand that it involves many skills other than simply throwing far; and, 2) its governing bodies to prevent players who can throw 500' from gaining too much of an advantage over very good players who can't throw much past 350.

Love it. I wouldn't mind having a limit on the amount of discs one could carry during an event. set it at maybe 17 including putters. It would force a player to think about the course he/she was playing. Can they achieve flights they desire based off the disc choices? Do they carry the headwind driver they only use for 2 holes but it could really help or do they put the extra backup in in case the water hazards gobble the go to up? I like the idea.

 

[grodney]

Do you get upset one someone says "this thing is gay"? I doubt it.

I think it's childish and I discourage its use. I think it's equally abhorrent to using "retarded" in that manner. Upset? No. Thinking we can do better? Yes.

 

[nevets4433]

We already have technical standards in place...I don't think there is a real reason to go backwards from the technology limits in place. Sure, if you take a speed 14 driver out to a middle school course, it is going to be obsolete. And if you hit someone...it is YOUR FAULT! Own up to it...don't throw a shot if you are worried you are going to hit someone.

But taking technology backwards isn't the right response. We already have reasonable limits in place. Its not as if these high speed drivers are killing the game. Put one in a noob's hand and watch the fun unfold. They require skill to master, as does any other disc.

In today's era of longer and longer courses, there is no reason to revert to older technology.

And in a sport that is still very small, and is only now gaining acceptance, there is definitely no room to create a difference in disc technology between the pros and ams.

 

[Halcón]

if you hit someone...it is YOUR FAULT! Own up to it...don't throw a shot if you are worried you are going to hit someone.

Not always. Accidents do happen, that aren't always our fault.

Put one in a noob's hand and watch the fun unfold.

Put a "warp speed" driver in a noob's hand, and watch him hyzer it 100 feet. Put a DX Leo, Archangel, Diamond...etc in their hand and watch their faces as the disc flies straighter, and further.

 

[Three Putt]

before the HS drivers, there was very few courses pushing forr longer more difficult holes. Shortly after the HS drivers took off, course design took the next step.

Totally wrong. The move toward par 4's and par 5's was taking place the entire decade of the 90's while we were throwing Vipers. It took a long time for the right course designers to get the right land to do it. Ozark Mountain opened when the fastest discs out there were Eagles and TeeBirds. In short, the development of faster drivers had NOTHING to do with the development of harder courses. It might actually be the other way around.

 

[Three Putt]

What Shawn said about the meeting is accurate. He was there. I just provided more details about the proposal Harold presented. Shawn's follow-up question suggested there may have been 150 class limit being discussed. It is my understanding that was/is not part of the proposal.

I do not disagree with Shawn. I agree strongly that he should ask questions like this since he is a BOD candidate. Shawn has a great insight to this sport through his years of experience as both a player and volunteer.

I didn't mean my post to question Shawn, he didn't do anything wrong. He stated that was confused by Harold's presentation. What I wanted to point out (since a lot of people on here don't know who you are) was that I was glad that you posted to shed some more light on what Harold was proposing. It seems like from Shawn's perspective, Harold didn't do a great job of explaining what he really was getting at.

 

[Three Putt]

Money and money only. They could sell a lot of new discs if standards change.

Lol.

People who think Innova is all about money don't know Innova. Everybody who works at Innova is a disc golfer. Harold is a disc golfer. His life is defined by disc golf. He's a two-time PDGA Open Champion (for those of you who don't remember anything before Ken Climo.) He is THE driving force behind the USDGC. The guy breathes disc golf. If you really think Harold Duvall is going to try to damage the one thing that defines his entire life to make a buck, you really don't know anything.

 

[turbosteve]

Lol.

People who think Innova is all about money don't know Innova. Everybody who works at Innova is a disc golfer. Harold is a disc golfer. His life is defined by disc golf. He's a two-time PDGA Open Champion (for those of you who don't remember anything before Ken Climo.) He is THE driving force behind the USDGC. The guy breathes disc golf. If you really think Harold Duvall is going to try to damage the one thing that defines his entire life to make a buck, you really don't know anything.

The idea that Innova is some sort of money hungry corporation is getting ridiculous. If it wasn't for Harold or the rest of the folks at Innova we would not be playing disc golf.

 

[Three Putt]

I think there is a bit of marketing influence behind this motion. Innova knows the wide-rim driver market is just about to reach it's level of saturation, especially with all the new disc manufactures gaining ground on them. So why not try to get those discs banned and get the player base to purchase their existing slower drivers, and also start creating more slower drivers that promise the same results of the banned wide-rim drivers.

How do you know that anyone is gaining ground on them? Sales figures? For all we know, the market is swelling and Innova is selling more discs than ever. All these other companies we talk so much might not even be a blip. So why accuse Innova of dirty business when we have no idea what the business really looks like?

Sustainability doesn't really apply to disc golf, since this sport is entirely scale-able. There is a standard rim width/weight limit right now. There are existing courses right now that people play with those discs. New courses can be made longer -- yes i understand using a large lot of land is a hard sell. Even if new courses can't be made any longer, so what, easy courses remain easy, well designed courses remain well designed.

I don't think "sustainability" is really the issue here. Chuck Kennedy dais someplace in this thread that they were using that in place of another "s" word they don't want to say. Given that if this is really a safety issue and they don't want a lot of public broadcast of what they think our liability might be, this would probably play out behind closed doors and we never really will know what the heck is going on.

If it does turn out to be a liability issue, the idea of the players having a say goes out the window. It would be a leadership decision. Players will vote to cut off their heads to spite their faces; getting rid of 175g warp-speed drivers will never fly past the players no matter how logical the argument for it is.

 

[Three Putt]

The idea that Innova is some sort of money hungry corporation is getting ridiculous. If it wasn't for Harold or the rest of the folks at Innova we would not be playing disc golf.

Innova has its moments. Ask Steve Howle or Dave McCormack about Innova sometime. I don't really mean to promote the idea that they are 100% innocent of all dirty deeds done dirt cheap. They just are not nearly the Evil Empire they get made into on the Internet.

I'm sure the answer to the problem that Innova will promote will conveniently serve their business interests. It's the idea that they are manufacturing a problem where one does not exist simply to make money that I find wonky.

 

[zgmc]

If they are in fact talking about safety, what is the issue? Surely no one can be held liable if a spectator gets hit by a disc. That is the risk you take if you are standing in the path of the disc. If you go to a baseball game, and get hit by a foul ball, can Rawlings be held liable?

The only thing that makes even a little bit of sense would be that newer players might be more likely to injure themselves by throwing discs that are heavier than what they should be throwing at their skill level.

 

[scarpfish]

If they are in fact talking about safety, what is the issue? Surely no one can be held liable if a spectator gets hit by a disc. That is the risk you take if you are standing in the path of the disc. If you go to a baseball game, and get hit by a foul ball, can Rawlings be held liable?

I don't think people are suggesting that Innova could be held liable, but that the thrower of the disc, the parks department, the tournament organizer, etc. could be. A few well publicized accounts of incidents of non-participants getting hit with discs, and they have already happened, and courses may potentially get pulled, or parks departments may consider that they aren't such a great idea to install.

Also, there is a big difference in assumption of risk between being a willing spectator at an organized game with an organized, established and dedicated venue built for its purpose, where you knew upon attending that there was a risk that a foul ball could be coming towards you at any moment, and a walker on a sidewalk (who is likely not even a spectator) that borders a not so established and dedicated disc golf course getting hit with a disc. Nonetheless, courts have ruled in some cases that even those baseball venues aren't as protected as they might think.

 

[Three Putt]

Also, there is a big difference in assumption of risk between being a willing spectator at an organized game with an organized, established and dedicated venue built for its purpose, where you knew upon attending that there was a risk that a foul ball could be coming towards you at any moment, and a walker on a sidewalk (who is likely not even a spectator) that borders a not so established and dedicated disc golf course getting hit with a disc. Nonetheless, courts have ruled in some cases that even those baseball venues aren't as protected as they might think.

Our sport has long been promoted as something that can go into multi-use areas, which isn't a great idea. My home course uses a pond at the edge of the fairway for #9, which makes anyone fishing on the bank de facto in the fairway. People have been fishing there for as long as I can remember; the disc golf course went in 2009.

#9 is horrible course design due to conflict with other park uses and the signature hole of the course due to the risk involved in going for the hyzer flip out over the lake. It is either the worst hole on the course or the best hole on the course, depending on your perspective. We yell "fore" at the fishermen, who ignore us. These days, most have headphones on and can't hear us anyway. So they get thrown at. A lot. Someday, somebody is going to get hit. What happens next really depends on how badly they are hurt and how big of a stink they make about it.

We can take out #9. Hole # 3 and # 6 conflict with a sidewalk. Take out all three, and we have no course. Really, the park cannot hold a disc golf course without the conflict with other users. There just isn't the space. Those other users mostly don't know what disc golf is and don't know they need to be out of the way of anything. Even if they know the disc golf course is there, they think we are throwing Frisbees and are not all that worried about being hit.

So...we wait and cross our fingers that no one gets hit. It's not the greatest long-term plan.

 

[Three Putt]

So here would be a hypothetical. Illinois has a nice disc golf boom going on in Chicago due to a huge influx of poorly designed courses in multi-use parks. Illinois has the Park District Risk Management Agency (PDRMA) with around 150 member park districts. Disc golf isn't really a blip on the radar screen for PDRMA right now. If they end up juggling multiple lawsuits from multiple member park districts over these poorly designed disc golf courses in multi-use parks, it will be on their radar. If PDRMA decides that places like Leo Leathers, Prairie Park and the countless other bad courses (which make up the majority of disc golf holes in the Chicagoland area) pose a liability, they are gone. If you have to choose between your insurance coverage and a crappy 9-hold disc golf course, it's a no brainer.

The reality for most of these courses is that they either are poorly designed or they don't exist. They are crammed into land not suited for disc golf. The reality for the sport is that if those holes are not there, disc golf is not booming in Chicago. Rock, meet hard place.

If something could be done from an equipment end to reduce the liability that these courses pose, that would be worth looking into. If you don't think they pose a liability, you should read the reviews on this site. Everybody knows there is a problem; you can read it in the reviews. Reviews that lawyers will probably be introducing into evidence, BTW.