Pros vs Ams: Shoulder Rotation and Arm Depth

[Arezaki]

This video shows the difference in shoulder movement between a pro and an amateur ball golfer. The two GIFs show the differences in the movement. The blue gif is the pro and the red is the am. If there is one thing I have learned here, it is that ball golf technique is very similar to disc golf. I watched this just now and I haven't tried this out in the field yet. I have tested it in the comfort of my own home, swinging my arm, extending my shoulder, and I have to say that I feel more whip, more blood rushing into my fingers. There must be something here. What do you far-throwers say?

Full video:
https://youtu.be/hjyGU-9bgf8?t=236

 

[sidewinder22]

Yep, was actually posted yesterday in link below. This stretch or protraction of the lead shoulder should be happening naturally if you are doing Door Frame Drill and Olympic Hammer Throw Drill and Reciprocating Dingle Arm(let the shoulder hang) correctly. I think this is where the term "reachback" actually comes from... like reaching for something. There's also a retraction and protraction of the trail shoulder as well.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3750631#post3750631

 

[Arezaki]

I tried to search for this in the forums, but did not find it. I think it deserves its own thread, though, because it shows what you all have been talking about so clearly. This was eye-opening for me. Sidewinder, this is what you mean by the arm being pulled taunt?

If I understand it correctly, the shoulder should be pulled back in the reachback, like in the door frame drill. Put should the shoulder stay in that position during the power pocket and the hit (like in SWs images)? To me, it seems more natural that the shoulder should come «back in place» maybe during or after the power pocket, before the hit. What is correct?

Thanks for fixing the GIFs!

 

[Arezaki]

*Pulled taut

 

[sidewinder22]

should the shoulder stay in that position during the power pocket and the hit (like in SWs images)? To me, it seems more natural that the shoulder should come «back in place» maybe during or after the power pocket, before the hit. What is correct?

Not exactly sure the real, and if all pros are the same as backswings vary, might need gears motion capture to validate. The feel is that you are majorly protracted/coiled/taut(possibly more or less from top of backswing) in the power pocket hugging the disc and then springing back toward neutral on the way to release.

 

[navel]

I tried to search for this in the forums, but did not find it. I think it deserves its own thread, though, because it shows what you all have been talking about so clearly. This was eye-opening for me. Sidewinder, this is what you mean by the arm being pulled taunt?

If I understand it correctly, the shoulder should be pulled back in the reachback, like in the door frame drill. Put should the shoulder stay in that position during the power pocket and the hit (like in SWs images)? To me, it seems more natural that the shoulder should come «back in place» maybe during or after the power pocket, before the hit. What is correct?

Thanks for fixing the GIFs!

If you position it correctly in the backswing you don't have to think about what happens after.
It releases like an anchored spring.

Door frame drill will make you feel exactly what happens. Resistance / stretch reflex in the shoulder -> Resistance is automatically and unhindered released towards target -> Body needs to resist the force of the shoulder that has just been released.

 

[Rastnav]

Ok, but the disc doesn't provide enough weight to pull the arm taught? The door frame drill, sledgehammers, etc. what are the supposed to be teaching? a very magnified version of what you are supposed to feel in your deltoid? tricep? rhomboid?

If my arm feels pulled taught on the backswing, it's an active, isometric thing. It's not a passive resistance of a weight. In the bolf backswing, I was taught a swing which keeps the left heel on the ground. It makes for a simpler swing, especially at the start of the downswing, but you also pull yourself taught on your left side. I feel the pull in the leg, from the heel to the hip.

Is that the kind of "pulled taught" you are talking about? If so, where is the point of resistance that creates the feeling?

 

[navel]

Ok, but the disc doesn't provide enough weight to pull the arm taught? The door frame drill, sledgehammers, etc. what are the supposed to be teaching? a very magnified version of what you are supposed to feel in your deltoid? tricep? rhomboid?

If my arm feels pulled taught on the backswing, it's an active, isometric thing. It's not a passive resistance of a weight. In the bolf backswing, I was taught a swing which keeps the left heel on the ground. It makes for a simpler swing, especially at the start of the downswing, but you also pull yourself taught on your left side. I feel the pull in the leg, from the heel to the hip.

Is that the kind of "pulled taught" you are talking about? If so, where is the point of resistance that creates the feeling?

You are thinking about it wrong. Your whole body is the door frame! The torso is heavy enough to provide resistance for the hips. Your shoulders are heavy enough for the torso. Your arm is heavy enough for the shoulder etc. It travels through the body.

 

[Rastnav]

You are thinking about it wrong. Your whole body is the door frame! The torso is heavy enough to provide resistance for the hips. Your shoulders are heavy enough for the torso. Your arm is heavy enough for the shoulder etc. It travels through the body.

The body can't be the door frame, they are in opposite place, relative to your shoulder/arm.

The arm can provide some tiny resistance to the shoulder when you move forward, but the backswing isn't pulling it taught. It's compressing it.

I may be "thinking about it wrong", but I don't understand any of the explanations. They don't tell me what I'm trying to feel in ways that I understand.

 

[navel]

The body can't be the door frame, they are in opposite place, relative to your shoulder/arm.

The arm can provide some tiny resistance to the shoulder when you move forward, but the backswing isn't pulling it taught. It's compressing it.

I may be "thinking about it wrong", but I don't understand any of the explanations. They don't tell me what I'm trying to feel in ways that I understand.

It can be and it is.

Oblique sling:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138461

When you are cracking a whip The end of it weighs nothing. It's the resistance traveling through it. Put yourself in the door framme drill. Focus only on the resistance in the left butt. Then move it up. Then some more, across your whole back up to your shoulder. Then out the arm to The elbow. That's it.

Try it and you'll find it.

 

[jupiterboy]

Kinda what I was on about in my axis thread, the clavicle is a hinge in the lever.

 

[seedlings]

The body can't be the door frame, they are in opposite place, relative to your shoulder/arm.

The arm can provide some tiny resistance to the shoulder when you move forward, but the backswing isn't pulling it taught. It's compressing it.

I may be "thinking about it wrong", but I don't understand any of the explanations. They don't tell me what I'm trying to feel in ways that I understand.

Based on one year of drills and trying to throw correctly, this is the single most difficult concept for me to acknowledge. Intangible, perhaps. This sensation is the same as when you grab both hands of a kid and spin them around in a circle with their feet off the ground. You are the large counterweight against their smaller weight. While throwing a disc, you'll need to find this same sensation. Your hips and torso counterweighted against the tiny disc. This same feeling - leaning back harder to spin the kid faster - you will also be able to feel during the throw.

How? In my experience, you must maintain the 'want to' while failing for a long time. I am new to the sensation, but there's no way reading and thinking and watching videos could ever get me there. I had to be in the field throwing a hundred or more throws, a few times a week.

Once you 'get it', then you're no longer doing door frame drills. You're throwing the entire door frame. Because you are the door frame.

 

[Rastnav]

It can be and it is.

Oblique sling:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138461

When you are cracking a whip The end of it weighs nothing. It's the resistance traveling through it. Put yourself in the door framme drill. Focus only on the resistance in the left butt. Then move it up. Then some more, across your whole back up to your shoulder. Then out the arm to The elbow. That's it.

Try it and you'll find it.

In that thread you said the following:

Go easy if you want to emulate the feel. It should feel like an efortless load. Too much resistance will be counterproductive. I'm guessing 2kg is enough. You can always tighten it more. But that's just my guess.

Whatever it is I'm supposed to feel from these drills, I'm pretty sure I'm not.

 

[navel]

In that thread you said the following:


Whatever it is I'm supposed to feel from these drills, I'm pretty sure I'm not.

Don't feel discouraged. We've all been there. I tend to learn better from doing everyday stuff and converting it to disc golf. It was AFTER I learned what it should feel like that the drills started making sense for real. One thing to remember is that it should feel relaxed and athletic at all times. If you are only feeling the door frame drill in your lead shoulder then you need to relax, get lower and leveraged. It should feel like you are using your body from left butt to right elbow, more or less. Like big stretch. Hugging someone tight, rowing, throwing a medicine ball. Like that.

 

[seedlings]

Throwing the disc is a side-effect of body leverage. Don't try to throw the disc.

 

[BillFleming]

Throwing the disc is a side-effect of body leverage. Don't try to throw the disc.

So easily said.....so hard to do. But very true and works. I haven't been able to throw for a month due to work and a sprained ankle....so I haven't been able to practice my backhand. I finally got out yesterday and my throws weren't accurate. I finally stopped and thought about what I was doing and realized I was pulling the disc with my arm. Once I stopped that and let my body "throw" the disc, I got much better results.

 

[seedlings]

So easily said.....so hard to do. But very true and works. I haven't been able to throw for a month due to work and a sprained ankle....so I haven't been able to practice my backhand. I finally got out yesterday and my throws weren't accurate. I finally stopped and thought about what I was doing and realized I was pulling the disc with my arm. Once I stopped that and let my body "throw" the disc, I got much better results.

I wholly understand that some tips and comments sound outrageous, until you feel it for yourself. It's ok to be suspicious, but don't stop trying. Because an arguable amount of disc golf is a mind trick.

 

[lostDoughnut]

What i got out of the door frame drill was where to put my arm during the backswing. (there could be more to it. fortunately there are tons of other drills that i never stayed with one for too long. i dont think one drill is worth sticking around if its not getting the results, it could be that another drill needs to come before this one)

my results of door frame drill, or what i got out of it:
If i put my arm waaaay above my head and pull, i feel weak
if i put my arm waaaaay below my waist and pull, i feel weak
if i put my arm somwhere between there particular for my height and build, i feel strong

 

[semisensei]

The door frame drill has helped me feel how my hips are a counter weight to the disc. I "fall" through the stride as I reach back, and at the moment of the plant/brace/top of backswing *that* is the door frame feeling. The door frame drill helps you feel that moment, and find the right body mechanics to facilitate balance and acceleration of the disc. After that door frame drill moment, the momentum of my hips pulls against the inertia of the disc, and the disc accelerates forward so the body can maintain balance over the brace.
I think it's easier to feel when I really slow down the throw. What it feels like to me is kind of like standing on the bus, holding onto one of the vertical poles, with my body towards the front of the bus, pole a bit behind me, my body facing the left side of the bus. The driver taps the breaks, and my momentum keeps me moving forward. I've got to tug on the pole to regain balance. Easy. What I'm doing here is essentially pulling/applying a force to the bus like I would pull a disc.
The disc is quite a bit less mass than a bus, so in order to apply the same force needed to maintain my balance, the disc needs to accelerate a lot faster. F=ma.
The longer the backswing, or further out I allow my CoG to "fall" away from the disc, the more force is needed to maintain balance, and the more the disc will have to accelerate.
This video from SW22 is great because it shows how he falls into the brace and then applies force to the revolving door in order to maintain his dynamic balance:

http://https://youtu.be/EUS-u7p-Zow

If he missed the grip on the door he would fall over to the right. If the door was a lot lighter, he would have to swing it a lot faster to maintain balance.

 

[semisensei]

https://youtu.be/EUS-u7p-Zow

Fixed the link. Anyone mind sharing how to embed videos in the post?