Really Needing Some Form Help (Video)

[jshryer1]

I've been disc golfing for about a year and a half now and have developed what I thought was a solid form. I can get a destroyer 350' pretty consistently and am accurate with most of my shots (primarily RHBH). However, I have recently been feeling a pain in my lower back each time I throw and have therefore decided to check my form. I watched some videos of McBeth and some other pros driving and discovered a few things.

The most obvious thing that saw in the videos is that all of the pros seem to throw with almost all of their weight on their front foot. This allows their bodies to rotate easier and take the strain off of their backs. I looked at a video of my form that I took a few months ago and saw that my hips trigger and shoulders rotate fine, but my back foot drags along the ground and doesn't allow my hips to fully rotate out of the throw. I feel that this is putting a lot of strain on my lower back and is the source of my problem.

I went down to the course with this in mind and played a round. It was almost freezing temperature outside so I knew my performance wouldn't be great from the beginning but hoped I could still get some work in. I tried to focus on transferring my weight to my front foot while throwing and allowing the momentum to spin my body but I ran into some troubles. First it just felt awkward. It felt like I was off balance, my back leg spinning around wildly. I was also having problems releasing lower than I wanted, which I believe is because I am used to throwing while standing straight up instead of being bent over. However, I did not have the back pain that I had been having so I was encouraged.

I'm going to keep working on the new form, hoping it will start feeling more natural. I started this thread in hopes of getting some pointers on exactly how the weight transfer works and how I can make it feel more natural. Any other help is definitely welcome.

Thanks!

http://youtu.be/GDP-IXrsAHI

 

[sidewinder22]

You need to compact your footwork to better maintain good athletic balance and posture. Your footwork is way too long to get forward or maintain good athletic balance/posture. Your x-step foot lands way too backward to make a forward move and way too long putting your weight too far back to make it forward. Then you stride really far forward with the front foot and you end up standing up out of a forward tilt/maintaining pressure cooker for the swing(see last video).

 

[jshryer1]

You need to compact your footwork to better maintain good athletic balance and posture. Your footwork is way too long to get forward or maintain good athletic balance/posture. Your x-step foot lands way too backward to make a forward move and way too long putting your weight too far back to make it forward. Then you stride really far forward with the front foot and you end up standing up out of a forward tilt/maintaining pressure cooker for the swing(see last video).

Makes sense, thanks!

 

[TalbotTrojan]

You could certainly generate a lot more power. Right now it looks like you are simply trying to throw rather than really getting your body to put power behind the disc. I have this problem. I am not so sure there is a lot wrong with your steps, a lot of guys I know take much bigger steps than you do to generate power.

Your form reminds me a lot of Matt Orum. I would reccomend looking at what he does compared to you and see if you can find some ways to generate more power.

I highly reccomend listening to what HyzerUnibomber has to say. You can read his blog at HeaveyDisc.Blogspot.com.

 

[sidewinder22]

You could certainly generate a lot more power. Right now it looks like you are simply trying to throw rather than really getting your body to put power behind the disc. I have this problem. I am not so sure there is a lot wrong with your steps, a lot of guys I know take much bigger steps than you do to generate power.

Your form reminds me a lot of Matt Orum. I would reccomend looking at what he does compared to you and see if you can find some ways to generate more power.

I highly reccomend listening to what HyzerUnibomber has to say. You can read his blog at HeaveyDisc.Blogspot.com.

If you are freakishly flexible and grew up playing the sport like Will S or Eagle, you can take longer steps than the rest of us mortals. Power/torque comes from your contact from the ground up, not how fast or long you move, you have to lean to make the right move before you add speed to it. Well look at MattyO's x-step, it's way shorter! What the hell do I know, I'm just a loud mouthed schnook!

 

[jshryer1]

If you are freakishly flexible and grew up playing the sport like Will S or Eagle, you can take longer steps than the rest of us mortals. Power/torque comes from your contact from the ground up, not how fast or long you move, you have to lean to make the right move before you add speed to it. Well look at MattyO's x-step, it's way shorter! What the hell do I know, I'm just a loud mouthed schnook!

I see both sides of what you guys are saying. My background is in baseball so the way I look at driving is the same as pitching mechanics - trying to get downhill as quickly as possible, thus the long strides. I see where shorter strides give you a more powerful base but it feels awkward for me as I don't feel like I am generating enough forward momentum. Hope this makes sense.

 

[sidewinder22]

If you can't generate much power going very slow or standstill, the problem is you are only using forward momentum in your throw and missing the torque. Essentially you have maxed out until you add torque.

BH = Ken Griffey Jr. batting line drive, small stride into more closed stance and swinging one handed from the front arm.



FH = Submarine/Sidearm pitching, throwing from the rear arm on a more level plane.

 

[jshryer1]

If you can't generate much power going very slow or standstill, the problem is you are only using forward momentum in your throw and missing the torque. Essentially you have maxed out until you add torque.

BH = Ken Griffey Jr. batting line drive, small stride into more closed stance and swinging one handed from the front arm.



FH = Submarine/Sidearm pitching, throwing from the rear arm on a more level plane.

Ok I like the idea of a stand still shot, easier to see what is happening. The difference for me between hitting a baseball and throwing a disc is that when you hit you are bracing yourself against your front leg whereas throwing a disc looks more like bending that leg to transfer your weight all the way over it.

 

[sidewinder22]

Ok I like the idea of a stand still shot, easier to see what is happening. The difference for me between hitting a baseball and throwing a disc is that when you hit you are bracing yourself against your front leg whereas throwing a disc looks more like bending that leg to transfer your weight all the way over it.

To me the only difference is one hand vs two handed release, you still brace against your front leg. Think about throwing the bat to centerfield with just your front arm only. The release is going happen to way to your right and later(so weight has shifted more) one handed, so you would naturally close your stance to release straight instead of right field line.

 

[TalbotTrojan]

To me the only difference is one hand vs two handed release, you still brace against your front leg. Think about throwing the bat to centerfield with just your front arm only. The release is going happen to way to your right and later(so weight has shifted more) one handed, so you would naturally close your stance to release straight instead of right field line.

I agree with sidewinder here. The idea is to put as much power as you can into the disc and using that front leg as more of a brace allows that to happen. I am slowly trying to correct this in my own form. The reason one shoup come off their plant foot in Disc golf is because you are generating so much power in the run up that there is not way the leg can take that kind of power. Of course this will make for more inaccurate throws as well. The more I use my plant leg as a brace the more easy power I put into the disc and the more accuracy I have. If you watch the Schusterick slow motion videos you will see how long he stays on his plant foot because he uses it as a brace.

 

[jshryer1]

I have been working on my form for awhile now, taking all of the suggestions into consideration, and here is my report:

- I am still having trouble making this a fluid movement. When I attempt to throw and bring my back leg around it feels like I am forcing it and I often open my shoulders and spin off to the right, turning the disc over.

- I have been trying to shorten my strides but I feel that it is drastically reducing my power. Long strides always made it feel like I was building up momentum and getting a good amount of energy in the disc but this feeling is lost with shorter strides.

- Along with the previous point, I feel that my distance has gone down. Holes that I used to be able to park relatively easily are giving me trouble as I am now finding myself coming up short unless I put all of my power into the disc and really crank it. Part of this problem, I believe, is that I am releasing things nose up, drastically reducing the power that they have out of my hand. I am not sure why this is happening, however.

- I don't feel like I have nearly as much control over the disc as I had with my old form. I have even struggled at times with putting the disc on a hyzer or creating any real angle. This could be simply because I am not used to the new style and therefore need some time to practice before really manipulating the disc.

- I stumbled on this video of Paul McBeth and was curious as to why he places his feet where he does. His run up is very centered on the teepad but when he plants his front foot he is in the front left corner. Is this the case with all drives or is he throwing an angle shot in this instance? Also, it appears that he is taking very long strides but still managing to keep his weight traveling forward, any ideas on how he does this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ot2eYUqjtQ

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[sidewinder22]

Without updated video I can only base this off the previous video and your statements. If you feel you can only get power by moving much faster and cranking the disc, you are barking up the wrong tree. It's like trying to reach top speed by redlining your engine in first gear and not shifting. If you were making progress on efficiency you would be saying how effortless it is to throw and that you don't feel as powerful when moving faster. You have to forget what you think you know about throwing and totally change your philosophy. It's going to be a radical change and a long journey. If you want to improve faster, the best way is throwing from a standstill. You have to figure out how to make your throwing stance more efficient before you can add more forward speed. Moving forward fast makes it harder to get your arm swing timing down and maximizing your connection to the ground through your feet and hips.

Your x-step is way longer than Paul's, which puts you off balance. You are intentionally trying too shift your weight to your back leg and lose your posture. If you just stay upright and balanced, your weight will shift. You can shift more weight by jumping up/down, striding further typically throws you off balance and puts you in non-athletic positioning.

For the front leg, I don't think you understand what stride is because you are striding open. If you compare your front hip to knee to Paul, you will see that when he is throwing his knees(both of them squeezing between the knees) are much more under his hips and uses internal hip rotation. (see posture vid above)

I highly recommend watching the vids linked below and read the thread about snap efficiency or smash factor:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13291

 

[jshryer1]

Without updated video I can only base this off the previous video and your statements. If you feel you can only get power by moving much faster and cranking the disc, you are barking up the wrong tree. It's like trying to reach top speed by redlining your engine in first gear and not shifting. If you were making progress on efficiency you would be saying how effortless it is to throw and that you don't feel as powerful when moving faster. You have to forget what you think you know about throwing and totally change your philosophy. It's going to be a radical change and a long journey. If you want to improve faster, the best way is throwing from a standstill. You have to figure out how to make your throwing stance more efficient before you can add more forward speed. Moving forward fast makes it harder to get your arm swing timing down and maximizing your connection to the ground through your feet and hips.

Your x-step is way longer than Paul's, which puts you off balance. You are intentionally trying too shift your weight to your back leg and lose your posture. If you just stay upright and balanced, your weight will shift. You can shift more weight by jumping up/down, striding further typically throws you off balance and puts you in non-athletic positioning.

For the front leg, I don't think you understand what stride is because you are striding open. If you compare your front hip to knee to Paul, you will see that when he is throwing his knees(both of them squeezing between the knees) are much more under his hips and uses internal hip rotation. (see posture vid above)

I highly recommend watching the vids linked below and read the thread about snap efficiency or smash factor:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13291

A smaller step will keep me more upright but, if I understand what you are saying, that is a good thing. My main reason for having longer strides was to push forward, almost like a sprinter pushing off against the ground. Short strides make me feel like I am moving without any real push factor. Are you supposed to push yourself forward with your back foot or does the torque and power come from rotation?

Also, for baseball hitting drills we talk about having a vertical line of power, meaning that your back knee, hip, and shoulder are all directly lined up at the point of contact (see the Ken Griffey video if you don't understand), is that true for disc golf as well? Maybe I am leaning back to get the weight on my back leg and that is why discs are coming out nose up instead of keeping my shoulders level and driving through the disc.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that I don't understand what a stride is. My question was about teepad alignment as I have heard different things. Will Schusterick talked about moving toward the left corner of the teepad (RHBH) to throw an anhyzer as you are throwing across your body but I have also heard that striding to that corner allows you to throw straight once your shoulders have opened up.

 

[sidewinder22]

For the most part yes, but baseball is more leaned back and swinging a much heavier club with two hands.

You should adjust the stepping direction for pure shots hyzer going left to right, for hyzer-flips, flat and annies you can go more right to left on the pad. You want your momentum direction going toward the apex of your throwing line. Some players always go right to left on the pad because it helps closing the front side and can create a wider arc of the swing.

You have to turn later/further in the backswing so you are building the torque back through your whole body until you plant. The footwork is similar between baseball, golf, and disc golf. Below is the best explanation of the rear foot move.

 

[jshryer1]

For the most part yes, but baseball is more leaned back and swinging a much heavier club with two hands.

You should adjust the stepping direction for pure shots hyzer going left to right, for hyzer-flips, flat and annies you can go more right to left on the pad. You want your momentum direction going toward the apex of your throwing line. Some players always go right to left on the pad because it helps closing the front side and can create a wider arc of the swing.

You have to turn later/further in the backswing so you are building the torque back through your whole body until you plant. The footwork is similar between baseball, golf, and disc golf. Below is the best explanation of the rear foot move.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BM1HkWciyI&feature=youtu.be

Here is a video I shot a couple of days ago. I know it's not great quality but I'm hoping it will help show my progress. There are a couple of things that I think I need to work on but I will let you confirm my suspicions:

1. It looks to me like my x step is still too big, even after I tried to place more emphasis on shortening it. I believe that this is preventing me from getting my hips turned properly and is therefore why I am losing power.

2. I also think that I need to work on setting a spine angle and holding it throughout the throw. It looks as though I have a habit of standing straight up when I throw, making it very hard to be accurate and throw through my legs.

3. I worked on keeping my shoulders level and traveling forward with my legs. I think that this helped to stop all of my nose-up releases that were drastically reducing my distance.

I watched some masters videos yesterday with people like Climo who don't have the luxury of having huge run ups like some of the younger guys. A few things seemed apparent in their form. For example, their run ups are slow, with small steps until the x-step and final plant. Their x-step is very short, in fact their back foot barely clears the plant foot (unlike in my form). Then during the final plant and drive it looks like they really turn their hips, get in their legs and drive the disc out. It amazed me how effortless their distance was. Is this true and, if so, is it part of my problem?

Looking forward to some feedback, thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Your standstill stance is pretty wide. Your front knee keeps flying forward and doesn't brace or catch you so your weight doesn't really shift and happens too late. The front knee should stay behind the front foot like a skier making a turn, so the posture is dynamically aligned/balanced so your weight/inertia doesn't tip you over. Your x-step is just exaggerated issues from the standstill with the huge flat footed steps and your rear foot plants 180 degree from the target which is too far to turn into your rear hip and make a forward move.

 

[Jeff m]

I agree with what talbot trojan said , most things about your throw isn't bad .you need to turn your left shoulder on reach back a lot farther around reach disc strait back but turn your core more around push left sholder around toward target push it around just past where it fells comfortable .it'll thigten your core and delay your pull so when you plant your hips will pull your shoulders then arm .most guys I see here looking for help realy work on foot work and thats good but they aren't turning there core enough.don't lean back just turn around more at shoulders.