Reid's Journey to Backhand Mastery

[slowplastic]

For some reason I can't stop doing this even when I'm trying to just stay on my left toes. It's like my left heel is where my left toes should be which makes my stance not as closed? I think some of it is just ingrained in me because of how pidgeon toed that foot is. I tend to walk more on that heel because its more balanced for me. But in theory this shouldn't be a problem for my throw when I get it right.

If your left toes moved to where the heel was, that would move the foot rightward like 6-8" and make you more closed I guess, yeah. Just hop up and land balanced, see how your feet align while being turned away from the target.

Just rock back and forth, left foot to right foot, parallel to your stance. You'll be closed to target but don't think about the target. Just move directly to the plant foot along this line and see where the disc ends up. Thinking about the target behind you is a good way to shift too behind the brace/closed/targetward when that's already your instinct.

I don't see anything weird/wrong about my follow through besides a little bit of an abrupt stop to the arm. It shouldn't really bring you forward that much right? I could certainly smooth that out when I get more comfortable.

Yeah the abrupt ending is what I always see rather than left shoulder getting pulled to face the target and possibly stepping around if need be. I'm sure that will clean up but I'm not sure if it's from getting a little jammed from the shift direction we're just talking about, or if it's anything to do with arm like I was wondering above.

Since day 1 I'd been using my arm too early...initially from the reachback I was gassing it. Then after a while I was doing it from when my plant foot landed and once it started moving forward at all I added to it consciously. This got that disconnected and I just managed to have it catch up by the hit point. If you're using it early, it's just slightly compared to what I was doing...like as you're getting to the classic right pec position you're starting to use it. Since this would be ahead of the body by a bit then the arm is essentially moving before the torso from this point, so then it doesn't have that added position and momentum to pull you all the way around.

If you wait until the torso is turning forward and the arm is started on an outward arc from this point, then adding arm movement will really pull you around/outward and through.

Again this may not be the case as getting a little crossed/jammed up from a weight shift on the other side of your brace can stop the follow through from happening cleanly. But it's something to try out to see if you're sure your arm leverage is starting at the right time/late enough.

 

[slowplastic]

Can you explain a little more? Like which way am I shifting wrong? You mean I'm coming past the brace?

I think this is what's happening. Just move along your stance to the plant hip, don't move along your intended target/trajectory line.

Note all the lines are meant to be parallel to the ground.

 

[UhhNegative]

Got it, thanks! That's definitely one of the biggest things I'm messing up but I never thought about it that way before. I feel like if I shift onto the hip then I'm going to griplock WAYYY right (and this shot was already way right of the intended line). Or that basically I would lose my balance and fall on my face. But I guess that will just force me to be more upright. That's just how it feels in my mind, but I'll have to try that next time and be really intentional about it.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah when you watch HUB's gif, even though it's a one leg throw, his momentum is on that angle basically along the shadow of his leg on the ground. That's why his back knee goes to his front knee. Whereas your knee goes behind your plant knee at the target and your foot gets that really rubber band looking counter recoil vs. the firm counter recoil he gets.

You might get some griplocks and it'll feel like you'll be really closed, but just let the discs go where they want. And if your balance is good it'll just work out somehow, super weird but all the mass set up from behind/on the other side of the brace will end up balancing you even though you're not shifting it towards the other side of the brace as extremely as you do now.

 

[UhhNegative]

It's going to feel really different...

It's really apparent in this Paul gif how he is shifting so far left of the target line.

 

[Lumberjack504]

Paul "griplocks it straight" here. If he were to throw it straight down the line he's shifting on, he'd be deep in the woods.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Can you explain a little more? Like which way am I shifting wrong? You mean I'm coming past the brace?

You are coming past the brace, specifically your back leg shouldn't be trailing off to the left side like that unless you're throwing an analyzer. That to me is a sign, That you are not shifting behind enough.

If you go back to that idea of taking a basketball, and throwing it underhand forward – there should be no way that your back leg Would be swinging around the side. Pick up anything that has any weight and toss it forward like you were in a backhand stance and you needed to throw it... It's all the stuff that we've been talking about with slow plastic.

 

[sidewinder22]

That is not One Leg Drill. You are starting the backswing from a stiff statue static position and weight back and exploding and going way too fast. I don't know how you can start the backswing properly without being dynamic and pre-swinging/pumping before it weight forward and then moving your weight back, this will make your backswing much longer and smoother and hopefully the transition and forward swing longer and smoother as well.

Move your body back and forth over and over and over and go right into the backswing and swing. Forget about bending the elbow before the swing, it's completely unnecessary and IMO not the most efficient way to swing.

Climo 12X barely bends his elbow before the swing:


Feldy, former World and USDGC champ barely bends his elbow at all:


Shultz multiple Worlds and USDGC:

Kallstrom, one of the longest throwers ever and also was 1040 rated:


Stokley, Former Distance Record Holder, note how he swings back under and has no problem throwing anhyzer:


Loosen up, drink some beer, listen to some music, forget what you think you know about the throw, and swing SLOWLY perpetually back and forth from one foot to the other foot and tune your body to the swing. Don't worry about bending the elbow or having any kind of speed, FEEL the weight of whatever you are swinging and how your body can effortlessly tune the the whip to throw the weight in a direction you wish it to go. Don't try to spin it, toss/sling the weight.

 

[UhhNegative]

I'll tell my fiance that beer drinking is essential for working on my form.

It may not look like it but it does feel like I'm feeling the weight of the swing a little more. Like it feels like I'm just using my grip to sling the disc and not really my arm at all. But I imagine if I slow it down and swing longer it would feel much better.

I'll try that today if the weather cooperates.

 

[deyo7]

I'll tell my fiance that beer drinking is essential for working on my form.

It may not look like it but it does feel like I'm feeling the weight of the swing a little more. Like it feels like I'm just using my grip to sling the disc and not really my arm at all. But I imagine if I slow it down and swing longer it would feel much better.

I'll try that today if the weather cooperates.

Make sure she also appreciates that she has beer to thank for your existence:

How Beer Saved the World: https://vimeo.com/23278902

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I think the key to making the swing change, is that from time to time we have to be willing to completely exaggerate movements.

The conversations that have been happening in the various threads have been wonderfully enlightening for me, and I thought I'd sorta figured things out! The problem is that there's 2 pretty extremely different camps that are trying to accomplish the same thing - but through a different means.

There's the downshift camp, which is very obvious in the GG throws - he gets dead vertical on the toes of the back foot and then throws the underhand basketball forward.

Then there's the Will S camp from that original video, where he does the 1-step staying basically flat and and doing this: https://youtu.be/30cUNsWOYSI?t=196
which I personally dislike for a 1-step shot.

When I look at the 2 camps, I think the GG camp can generate power easier and with less wear and tear. My old videos on youtube are full of shots of me doing the Will S 1-step and I could generate some pretty good power, but that Will S is very incompatible with an x-step and it still didn't create the same power.

Furthermore, the Will S is very reliant on a whip-like motion with my arm. The GG motion just traps the momentum from the down shift and if the disc is loaded into the center chest, the momentum blasts it forwards. Same motion with an x-step.

Next up, I think SlowPlastic has nailed it with the diagram, and Lumberjacks's gif is spot on - and this is not just "shifting from behind" which I think is not the right terminology anymore - it's more like "shifting to trap the momentum" so that it's setup AT THE CENTER CHEST!

That's key, and I don't think I really put the words to it until we've had this group conversation. I don't want my momentum trapped and ready after my shoulders are opening, that's too late! We all know, and have long discussed the need to get the arc out front - and that it's a fundamental aspect to when the race starts.

But for this staggered-shift (and hopefully the down-shift) to work best, all the timing has to come together so the resistance of the brace pressured up against the frontside and rebounding inside the frame happens right through the extension. When you do that, the transfer of the momentum goes to the arcing forward disc.

I was able to start seeing the light with the concept of under-handing a basketball and thinking about a track and field hammer thrower.

If somebody told me "I simply can't do the GG downshift" - now what?! I'd say the fundamental description above is still 100% in play, but you have to do it without the downshift, so you'll likely need some better flexibility to get into the angles to absorb the momentum.

/long ramble
/happy dude

 

[slowplastic]

Do you think it's easier to throw with a downward weight shift with a lower swing plane or lower backswing end point?

Even in the windmill drill I bring the arm down a lot while I move forward with the torso and lead shoulder to keep it all connected. Similarly if I think underhand a basketball with the downshift, my backswing is a lot lower.

As soon as I only think "disc golf throw" then my swing plane is high like McBeth style.

For example in all those gifs posted above, the Klimo and Kallstrom backswing height and arm slot are what I'm meaning for where it feels natural when thinking about underhanding a basketball, compared to where Barry Schultz is at...and I usually find myself similar height to Schultz when throwing.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think of it more as compression and parametric acceleration that keeps the pendulum swing plane flatter and accelerates you efficiently like in a half pipe.
https://www.adamyounggolf.com/low-point-and-parametric-acceleration/

[URL=/gif/2012-usdgc-FR5_Bp]

[/URL]

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Initially, I think the lower pull through is natural because that motion feels right for a hyzer: you tilt the upper body forward and you're right at tossing the basketball. If I told you to flat shot toss the basketball, you'd be more upright, etc. and I doubt that'd be your natural feeling for underhanding a basketball.

That lower pull feels better to be "connected" with the throw initially. After you start dialing in the move, you can stay more upright and still feel good.

My pull through has always felt correct right across my off-arm elbow - so I'm not a high thrower though, or at least not for a while.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I think of it more as compression and parametric acceleration that keeps the pendulum swing plane flatter and accelerates you efficiently like in a half pipe.

ahhh, parametric acceleration... now it makes sense!

LOL, dude - come on back to earth, you're up there with the astro-physicists building rockets in 12 dimensional hyzer space!

(aka, I'm lost)

 

[slowplastic]

I think of it more as compression and parametric acceleration that keeps the pendulum swing plane flatter and accelerates you efficiently like in a half pipe.
https://www.adamyounggolf.com/low-point-and-parametric-acceleration/

Interesting, makes sense. Essentially you have centripetal acceleration at its highest at the low point of the golf swing...so you're adding more acceleration by rising/pumping upwards through this point. And to lengthen this point, you set the arc to begin in a way that will cause you to chunk the ground well before the ball, then rise up to keep extending the arc and end up striking where you want all the while adding your acceleration to the centripetal acceleration and keeping the club just skimming the surface since you're rising just enough to not hit the ground early.

I don't pump real half pipes haha....22' ice walls look like a building when you're in there and I'm terrified of falling 25'+ to the rock hard flat bottom if things go wrong. But definitely pumping more reasonable sized features feels very similar to the pumping motion to pull your arm through with a heavy lever, very intuitive once you've felt it. Got to really focus on that through the more horizontal plane shots.

 

[sidewinder22]

ahhh, parametric acceleration... now it makes sense!

LOL, dude - come on back to earth, you're up there with the astro-physicists building rockets in 12 dimensional hyzer space!

(aka, I'm lost)

Read the link ^.

Now you must release before zero barrier or the Wiley E Coyote lunar thrust move will backfire like an Acme rocket!


Swedish components, American components, all made in Taiwan!

 

[slowplastic]

Got to really focus on that through the more horizontal plane shots.

I know everyone has different learning styles...but that article helped me out real fast.

Swinging a lever I can feel when to firm up the front leg to mimic that arc, even on a flatter plane. I feel a WAY more aggressive clearing/pulling. People focus on that lead leg extension/hip rise at the end of a power throw form pro's...but really it seems the focus is firming up the leg and extending after/as you accept the weight and are entering the power pocket. Firming up and extending at this point feels like it brings my arm in front of me with way more leverage from my torso turning, due to hips clearing, then I can add my arm to it.

Does that sound right for how to relate it to a disc golf throw? It's so much more intuitive feeling for me on a golf swing plane with gravity helping.

 

[sidewinder22]

Does that sound right for how to relate it to a disc golf throw? It's so much more intuitive feeling for me on a golf swing plane with gravity helping.

To me it's all the same. Watch Steve Brinster in that Seneca video. Hyzer is so much more efficient swing plane than "flat"(Earthers) or anhyzer/over the top. You can throw "flat" and even anhyzer starting from hyzer swing plane depending on how you move your body.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Truthfully, the only thing I can glean from that article is how we're squashing a pendulum... that part I think I can grasp. Then I get confused again, and that's okay. I think it's saying the same thing I'm saying but with smarter words.

Damn you words!

And I'm glad it made sense to you guys, I think in my head I can best visualize the human body as a clear cylinder with 1 arm for throwing the disc.

For sake of the conversation, we just give the arm a set angle and load the disc in the arm. We all understand the arm at this point, more completely than we ever thought possible.

Now if this 6' tall clear cylinder (5' for SW22) is full of a thick sludge (our bones and muscles and my RIPPED ABS), we want to think about how we can do more than just rotate the cylinder or just shift it back and forth.

We want to rotate the cylinder with the momentum of the sludge inside maxed out against the wall that the arm is attached to.

If we can get the cylinder to drop down and forward a foot, tilt forward (tilted spiral) and then rotate - we can get a ton of the sludge maxed out on the arm side.

The direction of that shift, as we've now discussed quite a bit, is not targetward. If that cylinder was shifting targetward, the arm would be maxed out in it's power only if we threw too far right.

So we adjust the shift to be about 30 degrees left (rhbh) of the target so that when the full disc redirection happens, the max power is now targetward.

WOW, I've got a new puppy and she's sitting on my lap and she just ripped a really stanky fart!

More ways to visualize the system, glad we're having a little tent revival!