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Haven't been able to play at all really: getting married this coming weekend, started a new job with a one hour commute, and trying to settle into a routine. I still want to learn how to throw far, so I'm going to figure out a way to make this work. So, for the winter I'm going to focus on drills and filming them and balance. Here's a video of me (very awkwardly) trying the Kick the Can drill. Just use your imagination that there's a can there. This was going off of memory of the video so I'm sure I screwed it up somehow.
You have all those weights sitting there, use them. Grab one in each hand and do the windmill without ripping your arm/s apart, nice and smooth and fluid motion like you want to toss it like horseshoes but backhand underhand.
In general I think you are trying to shift too much diagonal in these drills. Should be shifting/kicking more straight down the line lateral/sideways in these drills. Your front foot is swinging through too backwards, should be more lateral but still leading heel first so the toes whip through ahead of the heel through the can/ball. Not sure kick the can is the best drill for you though. I would focus more on perpetual motion drills, back and forth.
I liked the two-step/ginga reciprocating dingle arms at the end:
I'm still alive. Been busy with a new job and a new wife and holiday travels and nasty weather outside. Finally got a chance to throw again recently and noticed I went back to my nasty habit of coming off my rear heel. But I realized now that I'm really just letting too my of my weight slosh towards the left side of the teepad and not getting that rear side countering. I need to be more "squatty" and upright and trust that. Going to start playing in a league again in January and hopefully get more involved in disc golf again. I need it in my life.
I'm really having a hell of a time trying to figure out how to let my rear leg hang under my rear hip. Whenever I try to drive my rear knee in like that, everything wants to open and my weight feels too far to the left of the teepad. Even going in slow motion it's hard for me to do. Might mean I need to get down in more athletic position and get my butt out. Got a couple videos from today. Am I collapsing my brace? Without having a disc in my hand I can really get a good plant into the ground where everything feels solid but put a disc in my hand and I'm hesitant to really crush the can for some reason.
You get flat on your rear foot/heel and extend your rear knee instead of extending the foot - plantar flexion with flexed knee should shorten your stride/stance and make it much easier to land more upright on front leg.
What does this mean? Rotate UNDER so you can slap yourself??? I've never heard of this, or even know what it means. Do you have any examples or explanations of what this is? And why it's important? Thanks
Being on tippie toes to avoid the heel isn't the same as being balanced over the foot with weight centered on toes...I had been on rear toes the wrong way by having the foot too far behind me/to my right so I was so far on the toes it would push me left to the plant. And any side to side sway during the X-step means very very bad things everywhere else in the throw.
You are jamming into your plant/right hip...you are too far to the back of the teepad so you're not actually upright on the leg as if you took a walking step. This is why your rear leg extends back behind you, rather than coming forward with you...you never completely leave this leg as if you just stepped forward to your right leg. I think you are also jamming into the hip a bit too much from it crossing to your left as you go down the teepad, so it gets into your way and you get pushed to the left after following through.
Try to set up in one leg drill, or commit to being farther targetward over the leg with even less momentum going into the throw. Like less X-step, just a slight shuffle. If you can commit to being farther forward with less momentum, it may be easier because you won't be as worried about "needing" to stop yourself from flying through/forward after the throw.
I agree totally. Ever since I tried the forward pump hammer swing and focused on longer lever rather than arm angles etc. it's been so much simpler. Takes practice for sure but it's not that complicated anymore. Thanks to the school of SW.
Can you explain what you mean by this? The forward pump hammer swing? And focusing on longer lever than arm angles? I'm sure this info is in one of the hundreds of SW videos, but I have such a hard time understanding them and picking out info to help me Thanks
What does this mean? Rotate UNDER so you can slap yourself??? I've never heard of this, or even know what it means. Do you have any examples or explanations of what this is? And why it's important? Thanks
He's saying I need to follow through with my throwing arm instead of holding it straight out. I agree, just not on my top priority to fix right now. I'm not putting a lot of "miles" on my arm right now so I can recover pretty well between throwing sessions. Kind of like how Kevin Jones follows through and ends up with his hand arm straight back except he lets it go up. Think how different golfers finish the swing in unique ways. Some safer than others.
Can you explain what you mean by this? The forward pump hammer swing? And focusing on longer lever than arm angles? I'm sure this info is in one of the hundreds of SW videos, but I have such a hard time understanding them and picking out info to help me Thanks
Sure. Forward Pump like Mcbeth does here: https://youtu.be/b4kU7cwgnLA
Or Feldberg, etc. When you pump your arm forward loosen your muscles and let your arm have it's own weight and just use its inertia if that makes sense.
Pump disc forward where you can pretend your arm is the object you're throwing, giving it its own inertia. As your arm/object SWINGS (dont move it with your muscles-let it go) back in the backswing RESIST the collapse of the upper arm angle; i.e., no hug yourself. Boom - Feel the force.
Re: longer lever rather than arm angles. Without context this could be worded better. What I meant was that I used to worry about the positioning of my lower arm and the positioning of the disc. For example, I might say OK reach back and bring the disc straight into center of chest/power pocket. Instead if you pump your arm out there and let the inertia do the work, things are better. I was surprised to find out that you can throw far with a straight arm and the lower arm lag happens naturally - i.e., I don't worry need to worry about positioning of bringing disc to your chest, etc. And loosen up your arm muscles.
I found this gem, which is the answer, while searching for my post that you were quoting:
That is not One Leg Drill. You are starting the backswing from a stiff statue static position and weight back and exploding and going way too fast. I don't know how you can start the backswing properly without being dynamic and pre-swinging/pumping before it weight forward and then moving your weight back, this will make your backswing much longer and smoother and hopefully the transition and forward swing longer and smoother as well.
Move your body back and forth over and over and over and go right into the backswing and swing. Forget about bending the elbow before the swing, it's completely unnecessary and IMO not the most efficient way to swing.
Climo 12X barely bends his elbow before the swing:
Feldy, former World and USDGC champ barely bends his elbow at all:
Shultz multiple Worlds and USDGC:
Kallstrom, one of the longest throwers ever and also was 1040 rated:
Stokley, Former Distance Record Holder, note how he swings back under and has no problem throwing anhyzer:
Loosen up, drink some beer, listen to some music, forget what you think you know about the throw, and swing SLOWLY perpetually back and forth from one foot to the other foot and tune your body to the swing. Don't worry about bending the elbow or having any kind of speed, FEEL the weight of whatever you are swinging and how your body can effortlessly tune the the whip to throw the weight in a direction you wish it to go. Don't try to spin it, toss/sling the weight.
I tried to get caught up on your thread. Although you said that you haven't been able to figure out how to throw more with your body and legs, I think you may have come across the answer with your tennis background. I imagine your formidable tennis backhand you propelled your arms by using your legs. Try the pump, backswing, then tennis swing.
If you wait until the torso is turning forward and the arm is started on an outward arc from this point, then adding arm movement will really pull you around/outward and through.
SW, that was a KILLER read man! I love stuff like that! I wish I had stuff like this to read when I was playing golf all the time I love how the author explains at the end, that a lot of us that play sports at a high level, just instinctively figure these things out on our own without being told, but yet all the "teachers" try to tell us to stop doing them, or do this "correct" movement instead, haha. It's so funny, and yet sad. The human mind and body is an amazing thing! If you can piece these ideas together with the disc golf swing, then you've got Simon Lizotte, Eagle, GG, Kevin Jones, Seppo, etc. :hfive:
Have you tried the windmill drill throws lately? Might help to get you to feel planting a little more down and closer to your body rather than farther forward, so it's easier to end up on top of the lead hip.
So something else I'm noticing here that doesn't quite add up to what I see with my eyes. I've noticed this same concept/suggestion for other people's form threads. This idea that some of these people are apparently stepping TOO far out with their plant foot? And to shorten up that stride a little more. Which sometimes, I agree, the person looks like they are getting way too far out ahead with their lead foot and are in too wide of a stance. But yet when I see all the pros throw, they have HUGE strides and are very far apart. Even HUB in that windmill drill, starts moving his feet a medium distance as he's showing you the motion of how to do and feel the drill, but then jump ahead to his first throw, and sure enough, his front lead foot goes out at least a ft farther than he was doing in his practice throws!
Can you explain that SP, and why you would tell UhhNegative to shorten his stride?. Not disagreeing with your assessment at all! I'm just confused. My eyes see pros step WAY out, same with HUB, but then you and others sometimes tell people to shorten their stride, when to me, it looks normal. But that's why I'm asking, because I'm not the expert and I'm trying to learn all this stuff Thanks
Can you explain that SP, and why you would tell UhhNegative to shorten his stride?. Not disagreeing with your assessment at all! I'm just confused. My eyes see pros step WAY out, same with HUB, but then you and others sometimes tell people to shorten their stride, when to me, it looks normal.
The key is to be over the hip/leg in balance. UhhNegative isn't over his leg with his hips/fully stacked in balance and his torso is coming forward, so a shorter stride will make it easier to get the lower body onto that plant leg. Of course it's a feel thing though, if you feel what the balance should be then you naturally won't want to take a long stride because you can't get to that same balance point. Saying to have a shorter stride is simpler than saying "balance right", but those two things hopefully go hand in hand and get closer until you can feel it.
With HUB's windmill drill, keep in mind when he's demonstrating his stride he isn't throwing for real and is going into the motion slower. The slower you walk the shorter you step. Then when he has real throw pace, he needs to step to the correct location to where his body is going to end up, which will naturally be a little bit farther forward.
The key is to be over the hip/leg in balance. UhhNegative isn't over his leg with his hips/fully stacked in balance and his torso is coming forward, so a shorter stride will make it easier to get the lower body onto that plant leg. Of course it's a feel thing though, if you feel what the balance should be then you naturally won't want to take a long stride because you can't get to that same balance point. Saying to have a shorter stride is simpler than saying "balance right", but those two things hopefully go hand in hand and get closer until you can feel it.
With HUB's windmill drill, keep in mind when he's demonstrating his stride he isn't throwing for real and is going into the motion slower. The slower you walk the shorter you step. Then when he has real throw pace, he needs to step to the correct location to where his body is going to end up, which will naturally be a little bit farther forward.
So once again, you and others say this: the key is to be OVER the hip/leg. And maybe I'm thinking of something different than the way you are describing it. But to me, OVER the leg hip, would be like your upper body stacked above your leg. So it would be more or less all one straight line from foot up to upper body. So when you or others here say OVER the hip/leg, do you mean like Roger in this photo, or Simon in the photo below? This is what I think of when someone says balanced OVER your hip/leg:
But the reality is this:
Lots of pros upper bodies are tilted forward at the hips and then their plant leg is tilted diagonal back towards their hips. And then here UhhNegative looks more or less exactly in the same position as Simon. Obviously there are some things Simon is doing way better. But they more or less are in the same position. So why is Simon in a "good" position, but UhhNegative isn't? Once again, just trying to get clarification as I don't understand. They seem almost identical in these two photos. Thanks
I would say that Simon and Federer are in the same position, just with Simon having more momentum going into and through the swing so more tilt. The capture of UhhNegative, although looking similar in angles to Simon, is not the same position...not balanced over the leg considering his momentum. To me it looks like his right/plant femur and hip are up, and his spine and rear hip are kind of behind and going down...jamming/stopping into that front hip. Both Simon and Federer have their pelvis more over the planting hip and they are able to stand up onto that leg, you can imagine them both continuing to walk through whereas UhhNegative is kind of twisted up more and folding a bit at the hip/waist. It feels very different even if in a still shot it is harder to pick out.
I'm playing around with some feel things of how the hips counter the torso, but I don't want to mark up these images with what I'm thinking before I've tested it. But it will hopefully help show how that tilt is balanced but also why it is crucial.
So once again, you and others say this: the key is to be OVER the hip/leg. And maybe I'm thinking of something different than the way you are describing it. But to me, OVER the leg hip, would be like your upper body stacked above your leg. So it would be more or less all one straight line from foot up to upper body. So when you or others here say OVER the hip/leg, do you mean like Roger in this photo, or Simon in the photo below? This is what I think of when someone says balanced OVER your hip/leg:
Lots of pros upper bodies are tilted forward at the hips and then their plant leg is tilted diagonal back towards their hips. And then here UhhNegative looks more or less exactly in the same position as Simon. Obviously there are some things Simon is doing way better. But they more or less are in the same position. So why is Simon in a "good" position, but UhhNegative isn't? Once again, just trying to get clarification as I don't understand. They seem almost identical in these two photos. Thanks
That photo of Rog and Simon are not even close! Roger is completely upright and braced in a straight line from his foot up to his head! There is no good tennis backhand shot where your body would be in a reverse K. Simon is in a reverse K big time. Not the same at all. The idea behind both of their bodies trying to find a balanced position because of their different shots and momentum's might be the same, but the reality of where their bodies are, is one is straight up and down over their hip/leg, and the other is way out ahead of their hip/femur. Also, in a tennis backhand (and this photo of Roger) your foot, leg, hip and upper body are almost in a completely straight line vertically. Whereas Simon and other hard throwers are in that reverse K position, where their front leg is way out in front of their hip, and then their upper body is way out in front of their hip as well. It's this equal and opposite that keeps him upright, plus his rear leg is keeping him counter balanced. I never see Simon stand up straight on his hip like a tennis backhand shot would be at the hit. He's usually very low and folded forward from his upper body and then it's only well after he has thrown and finished his follow thru that his body returns to more upright. Simon could NOT walk forward from that position or anywhere near the hit. It's only way later that he could walk away without loosing his balance. Whereas Roger most definitely walks forward from that shot if he wants.
And it confuses me that you say UhhNegative is folded up at the waist, yet Simon is WAY more folded over from the waist forward past/over his hip. That's also so confusing. Simons upper body is so folded over his hip, that his head is actually out over his foot. Whereas UggNegative is pretty far behind it. All of this confuses me and is making it so hard to know what is right and what is wrong :\ I feel like just when I'm getting some new idea cemented into my head, then something else comes along and messes up what I thought was right
So in regards to UhhNegative. You're saying although they do look similar, that he's not balanced over the front leg? So how would he need to have his body aligned in order to be more balanced, just for my own knowledge?
And how can you say that they are similar positions, but at the same time not? That doesn't make sense. Also, if you look at the photo below of UhhNegative, it's tilted from the left down to the right, because of the camera angle. And his hips are actually parallel to that the ground and sky line behind him. Plus he has his camera setup where it's a little left of center (slightly forward) and on the ground, whereas the video of Simon is actually more from the right of center (slightly behind) and up higher. So that is why it's making it look weird/different. And UhhNegative's front hip isn't up, it's the camera angle again. So it makes it appear like it's up, when it's actually flat or very very close to it. In addition, his spine is most definitely tilted forward from his waist. It's once again the camera angle that makes it look "off." I feel like where looking at two different photos here, haha.
And please don't think I'm trying to be argumentative or anything. I'm literally just trying to fully understand what I see, vs what I read, vs what I know from other sports. And certain things being said are just not lining up or making any sense. I'm a very detailed oriented and highly inquisitive person about things I love, so I just want to know everything and make sure I understand it very well. Thanks
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