Reid's Journey to Backhand Mastery

[SuperWookie]

You are looking a static image rather than the dynamic motion.

True, but the stills are from a dynamic motion, a video. And in that video, Roger is more or less straight up and down and over/above his hip with the rest of his body. His shoulders and torso are directly above/over his hip. And his leg and foot are more or less directly under his hip before the hit, during the hit, and after the hit. And I don't need a video or still shot to know that. I played tennis at a high level and had very good strokes all around. So I know what it feels like to hit a perfect backhand. Whereas I have no idea how it feels to throw a really good disc golf shot.

Simon is not in line. He is tilted back in a straight line from his shoulders to his plant foot during his backswing, then right at the hit, he is making a reverse K with his body. So they are different body positions.

So I'm just trying to figure out, should I be looking and feeling more IN LINE on my plant/front side, like a Tennis backhand, during the hit for a Disc golf shot? Or more like Simon, where my plant foot is way out in front, my plant leg is braced, and my leg is at an angle back to my hip, to play tug of war, and my upper body collapsed over my hip tilting forward?

I ask, because BillyJackO just told me yesterday that the Tennis backhand is the most similar to a Disc golf shot. And that got me all excited! As I know that shot well. But the more I dissect it, it seems it's not the same at the hit point as far as the body shape/balance is concerned. Obviously both players are balanced, but the shape of their bodies at and around impact are different.

Thanks

 

[sidewinder22]

The only thing that matters is dynamic balance. If you are in more bent in posture you will look like Simon. If you are more upright posture you will look more like GG. The dynamic feel is the same, but the look is different.

Look at the pic of GG and Federer and myself:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134167

 

[sidewinder22]

And it confuses me that you say UhhNegative is folded up at the waist, yet Simon is WAY more folded over from the waist forward past/over his hip. That's also so confusing. Simons upper body is so folded over his hip, that his head is actually out over his foot. Whereas UggNegative is pretty far behind it. All of this confuses me and is making it so hard to know what is right and what is wrong :\ I feel like just when I'm getting some new idea cemented into my head, then something else comes along and messes up what I thought was right

So in regards to UhhNegative. You're saying although they do look similar, that he's not balanced over the front leg? So how would he need to have his body aligned in order to be more balanced, just for my own knowledge?

You can freeze frame certain parts and it might look similar, but they can be totally different.

Simon has shifted all his weight forward off the rear foot and is in dynamic upright balance. UN is way late getting off the rear foot and ends up going around the front leg, and note his rear foot is inverted instead of everted and rear knee extended which pushes/tips him over top the front hip instead of rotating tilted forward. Note how Simon's front hip clears to the right so he isn't collapsing on it or into it. He is rotating around with an appearance of tilted back and tilted forward, but his tilt never really changes it rotates around.

 

[slowplastic]

This is a simple way I can visualize on those photos. Keep in mind you want to be centered over the plant, not just the front shoulder. Also in Simon's picture since there's so much tilt I'm trying to show how it feels like the shoulders are on each side of the axis, but also the upper body and lower body counterweight each other which allows that tilt to rotate/precess.

Federer's line is angled because he has some momentum into the shot, so this line matches his speed.

 

[UhhNegative]

So in conclusion, the only difference between me and Simon, is that I look at the camera at release like a badass

But really, I see how my throw is wrong, but more from the video than from the frame-by-frame. It's so hard to see the subtleties in just freeze frames.

 

[slowplastic]

So in conclusion, the only difference between me and Simon, is that I look at the camera at release like a badass

Lol don't look at the 80MPH explosion from your hand, just straight at the camera.

 

[sidewinder22]

So in conclusion, the only difference between me and Simon, is that I look at the camera at release like a badass

But really, I see how my throw is wrong, but more from the video than from the frame-by-frame. It's so hard to see the subtleties in just freeze frames.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLo97jXn5Wo&t=12m10s

 

[UhhNegative]

Question about hips and the lateral movement:

So I see (and feel) how my front hip is getting jammed up in the throw. If I stand still and shift my hips from one side to the other, at the end of the range of motion is where I can't clear my hips. Somewhere in the middle of that range is where it feels like I have range of motion to clear the hips. I know what it feels like from being able to do so when throwing left handed. So the lateral movement of the hips towards the target can't go all the way to the end of that range of motion by this thinking. I guess that's where bracing comes in to prevent the hip from going all the way forward and prevent hip clearing? Is this making any sense? Probably a 30 second video would be easier to explain this.

This thinking coincides with my experiences where if I can keep my torso "back" (more than I am now) I get easier hip clearing and easier power.

 

[RandyC]

Question about hips and the lateral movement:

So I see (and feel) how my front hip is getting jammed up in the throw. If I stand still and shift my hips from one side to the other, at the end of the range of motion is where I can't clear my hips. Somewhere in the middle of that range is where it feels like I have range of motion to clear the hips. I know what it feels like from being able to do so when throwing left handed. So the lateral movement of the hips towards the target can't go all the way to the end of that range of motion by this thinking. I guess that's where bracing comes in to prevent the hip from going all the way forward and prevent hip clearing? Is this making any sense? Probably a 30 second video would be easier to explain this.

This thinking coincides with my experiences where if I can keep my torso "back" (more than I am now) I get easier hip clearing and easier power.

You get that stuck feeling probably cos you are focused on the hip movement and not the swing. Shawn Clement would say something bout having the right task and everything is automatic.

 

[sidewinder22]

Hip clears rotationally and/or extending, while bracing forward momentum to send the torso/arm swing thru.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agKwNo_5K5c&t=1m

"The Hips are Automatic"

 

[UhhNegative]

I don't know what was different today, looks very similar to my eye, but I got a Mantis out to 364' by Udisc measurement, dead straight line drive. About 15' downhill. Just maybe felt a little more upright through the swing and maybe a little more turned back, but still see the same old issues.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/8wF5RNfh6GXFMvBGA

 

[UhhNegative]

I'm having so much trouble putting. I have a push putt. I'm always releasing high or low and just cannot find a consistent grip that allows me to release at the basket. I can usually get comfortable after putting for like 30+ minutes, but I cannot find it on the course. I can power the putt with my legs/body just fine, but the release out of my hand is so inconsistent that it doesn't matter. It's either dropping out of my hand early or I hold on to long and its over the basket.

How firm should the grip be throughout the stroke? Loose until the end like a drive? I've never heard that talked about during a clinic.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your vid never plays, just says will be ready soon.

I use MJ's grip for everything, same principles apply, grip pressure firm enough to control disc and spring it forward. I relax the index finger more for shorter throws and putts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO5zH_jQYjQ#t=1m34s

 

[RandyC]

I just want to feel my thumb print, not necessarily pinching anything spesific. Very much like when you pop the disc up and catch it, thumb controls it.

 

[UhhNegative]

I just want to feel my thumb print, not necessarily pinching anything spesific. Very much like when you pop the disc up and catch it, thumb controls it.

But the disc is releasing from the fingers right? Now that you mention it, I do tend to get lazy with the thumb and primarily focus on the middle and ring finger under the disc.

 

[RandyC]

But the disc is releasing from the fingers right? Now that you mention it, I do tend to get lazy with the thumb and primarily focus on the middle and ring finger under the disc.

Yes they do release from fingers but we are talking about such miniscule movement, regardless.. thumb is they key for consistency imo.

 

[UhhNegative]

Yes they do release from fingers but we are talking about such miniscule movement, regardless.. thumb is they key for consistency imo.

Thanks, it was an immediate difference for me. You're right it's very miniscule but when i focus on aiming with my thumb instead of my fingers, it's almost like a restriction on how high the disc comes out of my hand and I'm able to get less high putts. The thumb still releases first but it's a split second.

 

[slowplastic]

I'm having so much trouble putting. I have a push putt. I'm always releasing high or low and just cannot find a consistent grip that allows me to release at the basket. I can usually get comfortable after putting for like 30+ minutes, but I cannot find it on the course. I can power the putt with my legs/body just fine, but the release out of my hand is so inconsistent that it doesn't matter. It's either dropping out of my hand early or I hold on to long and its over the basket.

How firm should the grip be throughout the stroke? Loose until the end like a drive? I've never heard that talked about during a clinic.

I've had really good luck with feeling a similar hit point to the drive, by leveraging the opposite edge of the disc.

Pinch the disc between your index and thumb through the flight plate at the edge of the rim, this is an exercise and not your normal grip. Let the disc dangle below your hand, palm facing the ground. Swing it back and forth a little to feel the opposite edge that's hanging have some weight. Now pop it upward so the opposite edge swings up toward the sky. Do this a few times, then when it starts swinging upward let the flight plate slide in your fingers so that bottom edge becomes the top and the disc stays in your hand rather than swinging around the pivot point.

Now go to your normal putting grip and point at the basket. Feel the back edge of the disc swing forward when you pop your wrist, let your grip loosen so the disc slides in your hand again and that back edge becomes the front. That's how I feel the weight of the disc in my hand and can practice or aim the disc's weight toward the basket by doing that little wrist flick. After I feel that leverage/spin feeling a couple of times, then I just do that in my putt and the disc pops out like nothing right down the aim line. Leverage it toward the basket rather than letting it slide around freely.

 

[UhhNegative]

It's still been struggle city with putting. I get the idea of leveraging the disc and I can do so... inconsistently. But it's rarely the power that is a problem but rather the release angle up and down. I don't miss left and right unless I've truly lined up incorrectly, but I miss mostly high and sometimes low. It's just an inconsistent release. I think I just need to keep working with it and practicing and realize I'm learning how to do with with my non-dominant hand so it's going to take a while.

My throwing is getting better and better though. Really starting to get the late acceleration feeling and hit more lines. Notably I'm getting better at standstill approaches. The full power shots aren't as difficult because they don't require much touch, and developing touch with an off-hand is just going to take me a while.

Another thing I've discovered recently is how to involve my wrist better. Actually learned from throwing an ultimate disc with my dog: if I keep tension off of my arm early in the throw, it allows my wrist to naturally bend back a lot easier. I think I still tend to strong arm a little bit and that stiffness prevents me from keeping my hand on the outside edge of the disc. I could never figure out how to prevent that, but now it makes sense how powering with the body early allows the wrist to stay loose and keep my grip on the outside of the disc longer before redirection. It almost feels like I'm sequentially engaging my muscles all the way down to the grip during the throw. I had a couple of perfect feeling throws that even at 100' playing catch I could noticeably feel a more powerful ejection when I let my wrist lag. Now I understand what the "lag" feels like and that if you stiffen your muscles you prevent lag from happening.

I've noticed in James Conrad's putt he has the same little wrist bend back action right before ejecting his putt which honestly I still can't recreate. I'm going for more of a Wysocki style of putt with mostly push but obviously there is some wrist action in there too.

I need to get some video here soon to see how I'm doing.

 

[slowplastic]

It's still been struggle city with putting. I get the idea of leveraging the disc and I can do so... inconsistently. But it's rarely the power that is a problem but rather the release angle up and down. I don't miss left and right unless I've truly lined up incorrectly, but I miss mostly high and sometimes low. It's just an inconsistent release. I think I just need to keep working with it and practicing and realize I'm learning how to do with with my non-dominant hand so it's going to take a while.

Are you lobbing the putt at all, or doing more of a line drive? If you're too lobby then the high/low misses can be challenging...in too close and it's easy to be high, too far away and easy to be low. If you drive them a bit more then you have a long flight range that the disc is still at the correct height.

That being said if I tried to learn to putt with my left hand I'm sure I would be way more prone to one-off mistakes at random for a long time.

Also videoing your putt could be helpful, at minimum for you to see what it actually looks like.