RHBH 300 Ft Max

[Brychanus]

I've been worried that it will mess with my accuracy to watch the disc, but it's time that I go ahead and commit to the change.

:thmbup:

 

[DWhitt]

Finally got back out to the field and was throwing more consistently. Drivers staying in the 380-420' range, putters 280-310', and for some reason my warship was going about 360'. Not sure what that's about.

Side view driver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXSz36i1C7c
Side view driver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY-97Q1fWS0
364' warship toss from behind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_tVrDZLSGg

 

[DWhitt]

I was trying to watch the disc during the reachback and onward, but I only improved a little on that front. Slightly better though.
Staying on my left toe. My knee still isn't moving in as early as preferred, but the weight is clearing off of it more abruptly.
I was also throwing out a bit higher, which may have helped my slower discs get more length?

 

[sidewinder22]

You turn back too early, too far on rear leg, and your rear foot has no inward roll/eversion, so your spine tips over.

Also leaning too far over toes/outside posture.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio#t=6m5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=1m14s

Your foot/feet need to evert/roll/bank inward shifting back and forth, so the knee/s move/swivel ahead underneath to catch the hips/shoulders/spine/head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio&t=4m50s

 

[DWhitt]

You turn back too early, too far on rear leg, and your rear foot has no inward roll/eversion, so your spine tips over.

Will it help all of the above to keep my weight more targetward during the first and x-step? I could see leaning away making the listed problems worse.
Will be doing the foot banking drills in the meantime.

 

[DWhitt]

7/12 Field Work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7agITxcMOmI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WBv6YQvlzc

The weight distribution looks a little more balanced to me, and the rear foot is trying to bank but the leg really wants to be straight. It looks like eversion that's lacking the knee bend.

 

[sidewinder22]

Work from standstill/small stride. Focus on keeping your trail elbow moving targetward with the inward roll, instead of your elbow going behind your back and then reversing back away from target.

 

[DWhitt]

So is it a matter of getting my hips more targetward for the throw out? The trail elbow can be used as a queue rather than an impediment?
Clearly the further my hips go targetward and the more I bend my plant leg, the more the left leg bends and banks. Not sure if that's just positional manipulation rather than good form though.

 

[DWhitt]

I was just watching the PCS open, and it seems like Paul's leg bends and banks because his hips have rotated rather than moved linearly targetward. That leads me to think my previous message is not the correct thinking.
He seems to be pushing his left side downwards into the plant more than I. I think the only way to accomplish that would be to get my right hip lower in the backswing.

 

[Brychanus]

So is it a matter of getting my hips more targetward for the throw out? The trail elbow can be used as a queue rather than an impediment?
Clearly the further my hips go targetward and the more I bend my plant leg, the more the left leg bends and banks. Not sure if that's just positional manipulation rather than good form though.

Yes to the bolded, and also getting the rear elbow "inside" the posture to help commit the swing forward. In mature form there is some variability about where the rear elbow ends up aligned.

I want to head off something I think you'll ask about later. In Mcbeth for example the way he uses his rear arm "inside" his posture is very obvious. IMHO it's that extreme because he has insanely long levers for his height and has adapted for that high arm slot. I don't want you to try and copy him, just to notice that his rear elbow is very clearly West of his rear hip as he's shifting and committing the swing forward.






Too many players go nuts over this "swim move" and overblow one part or another. Don't do that. Just let the elbow come in more toward the rear hip with the elbow perhaps just ahead of it for now like not spilling a beverage. Literally hold a glass of water or beer near your navel with your arm relaxed if you need to. Notice that in Simon, Wiggins, and Gurthie, their rear elbow usually collects in more like Sidewinder is showing in his drill. Remember, you need to get most of your mAss working in your favor for now. You can get cute about details later, and at this point I'm pretty convinced the variation has a lot to do with body type and how your levers line up. It's interesting that most top players end up closer to the three players on the right than McBeth.



McBeth's body is truly special, and perhaps unique. Notice that in his younger form (still smashing) his rear elbow action was much more similar to Sidewinder, Simon, Wiggins, and Gurthie. I think McBeth realized that his body can allow him to make advantageous adjustments after that, including throwing at flatter release angles than most other players for many shots. But he had to go through the stage on the left first.


Eveliina Salonen is also great to watch for her nasty shift IMHO where this action is very clear. There's a reason she's one of the best FPO off the tee ever (if only she could putt!):

 

[sidewinder22]

I was just watching the PCS open, and it seems like Paul's leg bends and banks because his hips have rotated rather than moved linearly targetward. That leads me to think my previous message is not the correct thinking.
He seems to be pushing his left side downwards into the plant more than I. I think the only way to accomplish that would be to get my right hip lower in the backswing.

Gravity pushes you down. You can't push yourself down. If you move/shift laterally correctly(Ride the Bull), the trailside should start dropping as your center moves further away from the foot. If you move/shift incorrectly by extending the rear leg, you will tip the trailside over top the frontside.

Do Swivel Chair Drill, your foot should roll/bank in to rotate the chair, not the other way around. The hip is a ball and socket joint, so all movements (even lateral) are technically rotation of some sort. Explaining/thinking about all this is way harder than doing it, like walking.

 

[DWhitt]

I'm still trying to translate this into feel. Moving in a mirror to match what looks right to how it feels seems to have been a little helpful with this lesson.
Additionally, I finally transitioned from understanding the posture discussion to feeling that power and lag in my back and shoulders. I thought Brychanus was being dramatic, but it is a pretty powerful feeling. Now that I'm doing that, leading with my butt makes a lot more sense.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm still trying to translate this into feel. Moving in a mirror to match what looks right to how it feels seems to have been a little helpful with this lesson.
Additionally, I finally transitioned from understanding the posture discussion to feeling that power and lag in my back and shoulders. I thought Brychanus was being dramatic, but it is a pretty powerful feeling. Now that I'm doing that, leading with my butt makes a lot more sense.

I have a mirror in my basement/drill room. After getting drills critiqued, will often look in the camera right away to see if my motion is getting closer to the objective. Recommend you do that in Swivel stairs and any future drills. I had a hell of a time just getting the rear foot to roll in at all even once too because the leverage position was something I had never done before.

I am almost always surprised by how it feels once I get it right. Also keep in mind some things that feel powerful are weak, and some things that feel weak are powerful depending on what was powerful to you for other tasks before disc golf!

 

[DWhitt]

I found a nice video I hadn't seen before rehashing some Seabas content; I like the way he describes it.


Been analyzing my form with your comments in mind. My tentative conclusion is that I'm thinking about leading with the butt too much, and that I need to re-contextualize into leading slightly forward and targetward with the right hip.
The reason I think this is because I'm clearly overrotating backward and too early compared to pro form. It is preventing them from opening to the target on time. The symptom of that is my back leg de-weighting in the throwout instead of beforehand.
The off-arm elbow comments are cut and dry correct. Just something that I have to fix over time.

 

[DWhitt]

This picture you posted was helpful for me. It looks like he is leading with his butt in quite a bad way on the lower image.

It's nice to see the wrong way to do a drill.

 

[Brychanus]

I think Richard Hatton's summary in concept was pretty good especially in the context of addressing the endless debates about this. But I want to point out a lession for learning the motion (which is what you want to do).

Part of why Ride the Bull is so deceptively brilliant is because if you learn to do that move, it literally illustrates the shift axis that Hatton is straining to show with his video - because you're literally doing it. That's why people who do it can learn to throw farther than those who can't. There is no deception in seabas22 content - almost all of his drills are quite literally what happens in the swing, or exaggerating it. Unfortunately this isn't the Matrix - you cannot cheat motor learning or skip ahead:



IIRC, Hatton once said on the forums here that he had trouble solidifying a form to muster drives longer than 330', and I suspect it's because he never quite mastered this part of the ride the bull move. Not a personal critique, just an anecdote for the pile. FWIW, I still work on optimizing it.

Feldberg, Brinster, Pierce, Tattar, all have forms where I find it very easy to see the "ride the bull" part. It gets harder to see sometimes in the longer people because of their levers. The rotation happens because of the way the body winds up in the backswing and unwinds out of the backswing with momentum. It's really that "simple," conceptually at least.

 

[Brychanus]

Five media limit! Ah, crap DGCR. I was almost happy with the reskin.

Now look for it in the very limber, very long Simon in both of his forms:

 

[DWhitt]

So you're saying that I should spend training ride the bull rather than something else?
I keep doing the swivel chair, but it doesn't seem that helpful to my throw right now because I'm on a backwardsish plane instead of having everything in front of me as with the chair.
I'm somewhere in a grey zone between hitting the brakes and swiveling in the chair; I'm pushing myself sideways with my toes/instep instead of around.

 

[Brychanus]

So you're saying that I should spend training ride the bull rather than something else?
I keep doing the swivel chair, but it doesn't seem that helpful to my throw right now because I'm on a backwardsish plane instead of having everything in front of me as with the chair.
I'm somewhere in a grey zone between hitting the brakes and swiveling in the chair; I'm pushing myself sideways with my toes/instep instead of around.

I'm willing to be opinionated and say learning to improve Ride the Bull pays long run dividends, though you do need to learn to do it right.

I went back and read the recent posts. I'm wondering what will happen if you try to take what you are working on in the swivel chair drill, then try to throw with extreme stagger/diagonal shift. Need to get you comfortable with your body shifting toward the target coiling back into the rear side.



You need the rear foot to be in a good position to leverage while coiling back and "shifting from behind."

Heavy swings can help your legs and posture and weight shift learn and get more out of your head <3

 

[DWhitt]

I went back and read the recent posts. I'm wondering what will happen if you try to take what you are working on in the swivel chair drill, then try to throw with extreme stagger/diagonal shift. Need to get you comfortable with your body shifting toward the target coiling back into the rear side.

Heavy swings can help your legs and posture and weight shift learn and get more out of your head <3

I'll try these things.
My foot still seems turned back really far, so I'll also try a few tricks to get it parallel. That might be one of those things I need to overcorrect until my brain stops goofing it up.