Rim Width = Speed?

[TEX]

On some post here, I saw someone, I think dgdave, say something about how rim width equates to disc speed.
Is this true?
And what is the ratio of rim width to speed?

I ask this because I want to know more about how to understand the disc rating charts.

 

[Timko]

Go watch Bradley's new videos in his Snap 2009 thread. He talks about that in depth.

 

[Star Shark]

Wider rimmed discs are generally faster. I guess the best way to put it is they penetrate quicker, but as it turns out, slower discs actually seem to be released at a higher rate of speed. The faster a disc is on any given flight chart, the wider the rim will be tho.

 

[Blake_T1]

rim width doesn't automatically make a disc faster, but in general, wider-rimmed drivers have a higher cruising speed range.

cruising speed range = for a given nose angle (and launch spin), there is a range in which the disc will fly straight. exceeding the upper bound of the range = disc turns. dropping below the lower bound of the range = disc fades.

something like a cheetah might look like this: for 5 degrees of nose down its upper bound is ~32mph and its lower bound is ~20mph. thus a 40mph throw will turn over at first and as it slows down will eventually fade.

a disc like a champ boss is more like this: for 5 degrees of nose down its upper bound is ~65mph and its lower bound is ~50mph.

innova's speed rating is kind of a mix of the cruising speed range and aerodynamics. something like an xcaliber has an absurdly high cruising speed range, but it is more aerodynamic than a lot of other discs and wants to fly at a higher velocity and its intended flight path is overstable.

joe's chart power requirement encompasses a balance of cruising speed and stability. basically it takes a rough estimate of the launch speeds for a given power range and combines that with disc stability to see what is needed for a disc to fly how it is intended to fly.
e.g. while a beast is fast it has a fairly low cruising speed range due to its understability.

intended flight path is often how things get measured out. a roc has a cruising speed range of like 65mph on the upper bound but only like 15mph on the lower bound.

 

[Spike1]

How blunt the nose is does also affect speed. If someone could post a pic showing the nose on the Trident and the nose on the Striker (two discs with similar rim width but with very different noses) that would illustrate it. Also in practice the Striker is a lot faster than the Trident.

 

[smarkquart]

cruising speed range = for a given nose angle (and launch spin), there is a range in which the disc will fly straight. exceeding the upper bound of the range = disc turns. dropping below the lower bound of the range = disc fades.

something like a cheetah might look like this: for 5 degrees of nose down its upper bound is ~32mph and its lower bound is ~20mph. thus a 40mph throw will turn over at first and as it slows down will eventually fade.

a disc like a champ boss is more like this: for 5 degrees of nose down its upper bound is ~65mph and its lower bound is ~50mph.

This is fantastic statistical information. You speak with the words "more like," is there actual data or were you just using reasonably made up numbers for comparison? I for one would love to have such data if it really exists. It is not that I can judge, nor have the technology at my disposal to do so, at what velocity I am releasing my discs, but just seeing the cruise range of each disc may help tremendously when your brain makes a rough guesstimate of how to throw a disc when comparing it to something else you own.

I know there are a ton of variables such as plastic, wind, blah blah blah, but does such data exist where I can see it?

Scott

 

[Timko]

cruising speed range = for a given nose angle (and launch spin), there is a range in which the disc will fly straight. exceeding the upper bound of the range = disc turns. dropping below the lower bound of the range = disc fades.

something like a cheetah might look like this: for 5 degrees of nose down its upper bound is ~32mph and its lower bound is ~20mph. thus a 40mph throw will turn over at first and as it slows down will eventually fade.

a disc like a champ boss is more like this: for 5 degrees of nose down its upper bound is ~65mph and its lower bound is ~50mph.

This is fantastic statistical information. You speak with the words "more like," is there actual data or were you just using reasonably made up numbers for comparison? I for one would love to have such data if it really exists. It is not that I can judge, nor have the technology at my disposal to do so, at what velocity I am releasing my discs, but just seeing the cruise range of each disc may help tremendously when your brain makes a rough guesstimate of how to throw a disc when comparing it to something else you own.

I know there are a ton of variables such as plastic, wind, blah blah blah, but does such data exist where I can see it?

Scott

Nope. Like Blake said, Joe's Flight Chart and Innova's ratings system are rough approximations of these.

 

[Jeronimo]

Blake, why did you choose 5 degree's of pitch down in your example above?

 

[Blake_T1]

How blunt the nose is does also affect speed. If someone could post a pic showing the nose on the Trident and the nose on the Striker (two discs with similar rim width but with very different noses) that would illustrate it. Also in practice the Striker is a lot faster than the Trident.

yes. the "bluntness" is generally seen on the top-half mold above the seam-line. this is the most distinguishing characteristic of an old mold teerex vs. the current mold (same with orion LF's 1.1 vs. 1.2). nose bluntness can be somewhat measured by seeing how tall the vertical portion is above the mold seam-line.

This is fantastic statistical information. You speak with the words "more like," is there actual data or were you just using reasonably made up numbers for comparison? I for one would love to have such data if it really exists. It is not that I can judge, nor have the technology at my disposal to do so, at what velocity I am releasing my discs, but just seeing the cruise range of each disc may help tremendously when your brain makes a rough guesstimate of how to throw a disc when comparing it to something else you own.

I know there are a ton of variables such as plastic, wind, blah blah blah, but does such data exist where I can see it?

there's too many factors to contend with to get absolute data. wind, humidity, atmospheric pressure, temperature... the particular disc model/weight/plastic/run... a player's form with nose down angle, any oat, etc.

i'm pretty good at estimating launch velocity and have had much of it verified by radar gun (i was good at this in baseball as well with pitcher). i'm usually accurate within ~5mph.

the actual cruising speed range (in identical conditions with identical discs) will vary due to nose angle. the more nose down, the lower velocity is needed to turn the disc over and the disc will fade at a lower speed. this change isn't linear either. on super-wide-rimmed drivers, a pitch angle change from say 2 degrees of nose down to 7 degrees of nose down may have a massive effect on the cruising speed range. the effect going from 7 degrees to 12 degrees will have a lesser effect. on a narrower rimmed disc the change will be of a smaller magnitude.

as for actual speeds, assuming there is "enough" nose down for a particular disc, here's what i'd expect to see:
70mph launch = ~470'+ distance.
60mph launch = ~430'+ distance.
50mph launch = ~390' distance.
40mph launch = ~330' distance.
30mph launch = ~260' distance.

 

[Blake_T1]

Blake, why did you choose 5 degree's of pitch down in your example above?

it was arbitrary and within the realm of what most people get.

 

[JR]

as for actual speeds, assuming there is "enough" nose down for a particular disc, here's what i'd expect to see:
70mph launch = ~470'+ distance.
60mph launch = ~430'+ distance.
50mph launch = ~390' distance.
40mph launch = ~330' distance.
30mph launch = ~260' distance.

Is this Teebird or wide rimed fast discs? My assumption is Teebird based on lesser power/worse form,grip and power generation from early summer vs now. I don't have high speed video of myself that is current. My camera is down and I don't know if mafa has received his camera from the repairs yet. Anyway supplying relevant data ain't probably possible for half a year now that the temperatures have dropped.

I got to 390' with 167 Pro Destroyer at about 45 MPH while at the same time getting a hyzer angle that was too deep and micro slipping grip with a Star 166 Roadrunner spinning at 16 revolutions per second usually topping out at 17. If my ballpark measurements were anywhere near correct because I didn't compensate for any error sources in my calculations and measurements. However; it's nice to see that the numbers are in the same region. During the time the vids were taken I got a Teebird to 360' on a lucky rip usually struggling to reach 330'. Currently my TB record with a beaten to not locking to flat DX originally 175 is about 380-390'. I don't have accurate data points for the field I threw it at just aerial photos.

 

[Blake_T1]

it's an approximate average.

the longest flying discs on the market will likely be a bit longer than the distance i named. the shorter flying drivers on the market will likely be a bit shorter than the distance i named.
e.g. a 50mph pro destroyer throw may likely break 410', while a 50mph raven throw might only go 350'.

there are anomalies in this as well. i have thrown > 425' with disc speeds in the ~40-45mph range, but that isn't the norm. there are guys who can throw 500' with 40-50mph of launch velocity. knowing how to make a disc fly to its maximum potential for what you put on it is a skill that not everyone has.

also, the lower your launch velocity, the greater the peak distance potential is for faster discs (but the less consistent your throws will be with those discs). someone who throws 35mph might get a significant distance boost forcing a groove over vs. throwing a cheetah (assuming they can hit the line). someone who throws 65mph will see a lower distance jump when comparing the same discs.

 

[Jeronimo]

How blunt the nose is does also affect speed. If someone could post a pic showing the nose on the Trident and the nose on the Striker (two discs with similar rim width but with very different noses) that would illustrate it. Also in practice the Striker is a lot faster than the Trident.

yes. the "bluntness" is generally seen on the top-half mold above the seam-line. this is the most distinguishing characteristic of an old mold teerex vs. the current mold (same with orion LF's 1.1 vs. 1.2). nose bluntness can be somewhat measured by seeing how tall the vertical portion is above the mold seam-line.

This is fantastic statistical information. You speak with the words "more like," is there actual data or were you just using reasonably made up numbers for comparison? I for one would love to have such data if it really exists. It is not that I can judge, nor have the technology at my disposal to do so, at what velocity I am releasing my discs, but just seeing the cruise range of each disc may help tremendously when your brain makes a rough guesstimate of how to throw a disc when comparing it to something else you own.

I know there are a ton of variables such as plastic, wind, blah blah blah, but does such data exist where I can see it?

there's too many factors to contend with to get absolute data. wind, humidity, atmospheric pressure, temperature... the particular disc model/weight/plastic/run... a player's form with nose down angle, any oat, etc.

i'm pretty good at estimating launch velocity and have had much of it verified by radar gun (i was good at this in baseball as well with pitcher). i'm usually accurate within ~5mph.

the actual cruising speed range (in identical conditions with identical discs) will vary due to nose angle. the more nose down, the lower velocity is needed to turn the disc over and the disc will fade at a lower speed. this change isn't linear either. on super-wide-rimmed drivers, a pitch angle change from say 2 degrees of nose down to 7 degrees of nose down may have a massive effect on the cruising speed range. the effect going from 7 degrees to 12 degrees will have a lesser effect. on a narrower rimmed disc the change will be of a smaller magnitude.

as for actual speeds, assuming there is "enough" nose down for a particular disc, here's what i'd expect to see:
70mph launch = ~470'+ distance.
60mph launch = ~430'+ distance.
50mph launch = ~390' distance.
40mph launch = ~330' distance.
30mph launch = ~260' distance.

I'll start with this: A discs stability has nothing to do with "speed" in the way you guys are referring to it. Stability is a function of gyroscopic rotation (angular momentum) which is a function of snap. From what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) what you guys are measuring is the forward momentum of the disc, aka forward velocity.

Also, the only real effect of nose angle I could see would be optimizing the downward angle to match the generated lift (from the discs shape, i.e. air foil) so that for every X feet throwing down the disc lifts X feet to match, therefore maximizing distance potential.

 

[Blake_T1]

I'll start with this: A discs stability has nothing to do with "speed" in the way you guys are referring to it. Stability is a function of gyroscopic rotation (angular momentum) which is a function of snap. From what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) what you guys are measuring is the forward momentum of the disc, aka forward velocity.

Also, the only real effect of nose angle I could see would be optimizing the downward angle to match the generated lift (from the discs shape, i.e. air foil) so that for every X feet throwing down the disc lifts X feet to match, therefore maximizing distance potential.

a disc's stability has a lot to do with speed (forward velocity) if a player is not able to generate the minimum cruising speed bound for a given nose angle.

a boss is HS understable by design, but in standard weights (165-175g) it requires > 55mph (and usually more) of forward velocity (for most nose angles) to turn it over on a flat throw that is free of OAT. considering most players throw 45mph or less, this is a pretty significant observation.

a disc like a flick is truly HS understable but it requires like 75+mph of forward velocity in order to see that behavior. a disc like a champ firebird won't turn until it reaches ~100+mph of forward velocity (or say, ~60mph throw w/ ~40mph headwind). this is why flicks flip over into the wind when thrown by big arms.

nose angle has a pretty significant effect on disc stability, especially on wide-rimmed drivers. i don't know the math behind it, but with wide wings, it's no longer about throwing nose down, but about throwing with "enough" nose down to get it to fly as intended. the more nose down a disc is, the easier it is to turn it over and the later it will fade.