Rocking the Hips

[sidewinder22]

I agree it's nice to get that shift feeling, but I'm not sure about reinforcing that arm timing with it. Isn't the arm/hammer is supposed to lag behind the shift (elephant walk)?

Or maybe I'm way off base here. But my current biggest struggle is with my arm being too early (well, I have several competing struggles, but this is a big one), so I'm trying to find ways to both reinforce lag and get the shift on auto-pilot.

Yeah. I was about to comment the same thing. Timing the arm is so hard. Going early is a problem, but lagging too much collapses the arm into the chest. I wish there was a quick way of getting that timing locked in.

Yeah, this drill is more about the motion pattern and flow of everything, rather than timing.

 

[Waddball]

For this drill the hammer is used to exaggerate the feeling of your center of gravity instead of the feeling of the weight of the disc. Feel the weight of your CoG + the weight of the hammer as you fall into the plant and shift your weight. Maybe do a few of these to feel the CoG and then delay the swing, fully plant, then swing a la elephant walk.

I was just noting that the drill reinforces early arm movement. In my head, I get that no drill reflects reality and is meant to isolate a specific thing. But in my body, repeating things I don't want to do makes me repeat things I don't want to do.

Find the motion where your hips naturally swivel/rock further away from the target as you move your tailbone targetward.

I don't understand that, esp. in the context of keeping the motion linear. Maybe along the lines of what this guy is teaching (esp. 5:30 to the end)?

 

[azplaya25]

Yeah I'm doing it to feel how to shift correctly. Ultimately I'm trying to get to what SW is showing in this vid.

https://youtu.be/t2U3p6ilaD0

I find the skating motion to be more familiar to my body, so I use it to build a feel, then go back to the one leg drill.

 

[joohn]

Find the motion where your hips naturally swivel/rock further away from the target as you move your tailbone targetward.

I don't understand that, esp. in the context of keeping the motion linear. Maybe along the lines of what this guy is teaching (esp. 5:30 to the end)?

I'm just trying to describe doing this drill and shifting from behind. The bottom of the tailbone moves back and forth linearly, and the hips swivel/rock/orbit about the tailbone. You could also view it as the rear hip moving toward the target linearly I guess, but I have found it helpful to visualize it with the tailbone.

 

[Waddball]

I'm just trying to describe doing this drill and shifting from behind. The bottom of the tailbone moves back and forth linearly, and the hips swivel/rock/orbit about the tailbone. You could also view it as the rear hip moving toward the target linearly I guess, but I have found it helpful to visualize it with the tailbone.

Thanks, that makes more sense to me. The idea of the hip moving away from the target is confusing to me. I think it's more accurate to say it changes from moving at the target to moving perpendicular to the target as it rotates. Hard to describe these things, easier to see (but not necessarily to feel or replicate)!

 

[Salto]

This thread and the oblique sling thread have been interesting and helpful. I have managed to get the feel for it several times and the throw feels absolutely amazing. It really makes it effortless to throw far and accurate. Unfortunately I have lost the feel for it again and my throws feel so bad now that I have experienced how it should really feel.

...Notice how the hips tip back (hip closest to target is higher than back hip) in the "pump," then tip forward in the back swing (stacked on the back foot)...



...Just focus on rocking those hips forward in the pump, back in the backswing...

My problem starts with the transition from the pump to the hips tipping forward in the back swing. If I get through that part the rest comes naturally. Maybe this is the challenge for most, but, would you have any tips to make this specific part of rocking the hips work?

 

[Lumberjack504]

This thread and the oblique sling thread have been interesting and helpful. I have managed to get the feel for it several times and the throw feels absolutely amazing. It really makes it effortless to throw far and accurate. Unfortunately I have lost the feel for it again and my throws feel so bad now that I have experienced how it should really feel.



My problem starts with the transition from the pump to the hips tipping forward in the back swing. If I get through that part the rest comes naturally. Maybe this is the challenge for most, but, would you have any tips to make this specific part of rocking the hips work?

Slow it down to a painfully slow walk, keep the arm taut/hanging from the shoulder socket. No arm input. It'll come back

 

[navel]

This thread and the oblique sling thread have been interesting and helpful. I have managed to get the feel for it several times and the throw feels absolutely amazing. It really makes it effortless to throw far and accurate. Unfortunately I have lost the feel for it again and my throws feel so bad now that I have experienced how it should really feel.



My problem starts with the transition from the pump to the hips tipping forward in the back swing. If I get through that part the rest comes naturally. Maybe this is the challenge for most, but, would you have any tips to make this specific part of rocking the hips work?

You are probably forcing the arm swing, losing connection through your chain. Pressure comes first, then movent. It can't be forced if you want to swing well. Your arm needs to be the mass that's moved by pressure against the ground.

You need pressure going away from target to move your mass away from target (backswing) and then pressure forward and bracing back again. It's a three step pressure change. I bet you are missing that rythm. Try it standstill. A heavy weight might help you feel the swing better.
Look at the feet of a pro and see how they make pressure happen and then the arm swings back, then the same swinging forward.
If done correctly the swing will be on auto from the first pressure going away from target. Everything else will feel forced and un-natural.

 

[drk_evns]

This thread and the oblique sling thread have been interesting and helpful. I have managed to get the feel for it several times and the throw feels absolutely amazing. It really makes it effortless to throw far and accurate. Unfortunately I have lost the feel for it again and my throws feel so bad now that I have experienced how it should really feel.



My problem starts with the transition from the pump to the hips tipping forward in the back swing. If I get through that part the rest comes naturally. Maybe this is the challenge for most, but, would you have any tips to make this specific part of rocking the hips work?

You're probably tipping out of balance back in the swing. You should sort of feel like you're falling towards the target whe you're doing it right.

 

[Nick Pacific]

You're probably tipping out of balance back in the swing. You should sort of feel like you're falling towards the target whe you're doing it right.

I think if you make sure your lead plant foot and therefore knee is turning inward (which it should to get a strong brace) that kinda automatically drops your front hip and raises your rear one.

I think also make sure you're not hopping too high in your x step. That can have you tilting too much backwards. A little shuffle is all you need.

 

[Nick Pacific]

Was messing around with this today. Thanks Derek. One takeaway I found that was helpful for me is to make sure you're not rounding. If you're rounding that is going to cause your hips to spin out and rotate away from the target, instead of punching towards it.

Yes the hips lead the throw, but also the throw will dictate where the hips end up. If your pull through is nice and straight and tight in a very shallow pendulum, your hips can fire towards the target in a straight line, at least it seems like that for me.

 

[Salto]

Helpful advice drk_evns, navel, lumberjack504. I managed to figure out the hip rocking motion again indoors. I found one of my main issues was that my upper body was too static. I found when I moved my shoulders along, it allowed my hips to rock back and forth again.

Also managed to go out for some field work and a putter only round. And I felt the rubber band effect (oblique sling) again after having lost it for the last 10 sessions. The key thing for me was to completely relax my body upon reaching the peak of the back swing. Just let that tensed up rubber band sling the disc forward without any active input from myself. I believe this is also the point I should be putting pressure into the ground away from the target, but I am thinking this pressure needs to be driven subconsciously. When I am trying to consciously control this push into the ground, it messes up the swing. Do you think this is correct?

I still am missing some power from the hips which I had before. But I think I am on the right track and it can come back this way.

 

[navel]

Helpful advice drk_evns, navel, lumberjack504. I managed to figure out the hip rocking motion again indoors. I found one of my main issues was that my upper body was too static. I found when I moved my shoulders along, it allowed my hips to rock back and forth again.

Also managed to go out for some field work and a putter only round. And I felt the rubber band effect (oblique sling) again after having lost it for the last 10 sessions. The key thing for me was to completely relax my body upon reaching the peak of the back swing. Just let that tensed up rubber band sling the disc forward without any active input from myself. I believe this is also the point I should be putting pressure into the ground away from the target, but I am thinking this pressure needs to be driven subconsciously. When I am trying to consciously control this push into the ground, it messes up the swing. Do you think this is correct?

I still am missing some power from the hips which I had before. But I think I am on the right track and it can come back this way.

Pressure should move the mass. Think of a whip. You move the handle up then down (before all mass of the whip has finished moving) and the whip just follows along lagged after your hand movements. It has no choice.

Your feet should do the same agsinst the ground. You aren't trying to move both the whip and the hands at the same time, right? That would be impossible. Your hands move and the whip reacts.

So, you now seem to know enough about how your upper body should move, correct? Try to see if you can make those motions happen from lower down the kinetic chain. Your feet creates pressure against the ground and your body follows. If you try to sync your upper body with your feet then you will be in problem. Don't force it. Rythm, balance, dancing, effortless.

 

[azplaya25]

MJ rockin the hips

 

[navel]

MJ rockin the hips

Great gif showing how:
1. When MJ stops jabbing for feel he immediately puts pressure backwards (away from target) on the lead foot.
2. Soon after the pressure is applied backwards his mass starts moving backwards into a backswing / reach back, lead by the pressure.
3. Quite some time before all mass has moved backwards he shifts and puts pressure forward with his back foot instead. (Just like you would when cracking a whip.)
4. Max reach back at the same time all pressure has moved forward. Now all mass starts moving forward again, following the direction of pressure, just as before.
5. Pressure on the lead foot resisting the mass moving forward for balance and brace.


The result is effortless distance and accuracy. Mass is riding along with pressure change, following it, lagged behind. There only needs enough muscle control to:
1. Stand up athletic.
2. Guide the disc (relaxed) so that all levers will travel and whip through with maximal effect.
3. Get your trail arm tight so that your shoulders and body can rotate through without being hindered.

 

[drk_evns]

I think if you make sure your lead plant foot and therefore knee is turning inward (which it should to get a strong brace) that kinda automatically drops your front hip and raises your rear one.

I think also make sure you're not hopping too high in your x step. That can have you tilting too much backwards. A little shuffle is all you need.

The inward-turning knee is never something I'm thinking about, but it definitely indicates that you've dropped that front hip.

The hop is never a problem. The balance is. Look how long GG is in the air in this video:



Also, check out the Brinster Hop.

You just have to make sure your upper body (head) stays ahead of your rear knee.

 

[Nick Pacific]

Great gif showing how:
1. When MJ stops jabbing for feel he immediately puts pressure backwards (away from target) on the lead foot.
2. Soon after the pressure is applied backwards his mass starts moving backwards into a backswing / reach back, lead by the pressure.
3. Quite some time before all mass has moved backwards he shifts and puts pressure forward with his back foot instead. (Just like you would when cracking a whip.)
4. Max reach back at the same time all pressure has moved forward. Now all mass starts moving forward again, following the direction of pressure, just as before.
5. Pressure on the lead foot resisting the mass moving forward for balance and brace.


The result is effortless distance and accuracy. Mass is riding along with pressure change, following it, lagged behind. There only needs enough muscle control to:
1. Stand up athletic.
2. Guide the disc (relaxed) so that all levers will travel and whip through with maximal effect.
3. Get your trail arm tight so that your shoulders and body can rotate through without being hindered.

This was really, really helpful today. I just worked it from a standstill and watched that gif about 30 times to really cement it into my head.

I have been missing that initial push from the front foot this entire time (step 1), at least from a standstill. I probably do it correctly when I X step. I've been just pushing from my back foot into the brace when I standstill throw. I can tell I was getting a little more juice in my throws from just adding that.

My front plant foot hip is feeling a little sore right now, like that soreness you get when you hit muscles from a new angle/try a new routine. Somehow 90 minutes just flew right by so I quit while I was ahead and didn't want to overdo it.

 

[azplaya25]

I've really been geeking out in MJ's form lately, specifically his weight shift. Check out this wave of momentum he creates by rocking the hips during his putt. Still shifting his weight from behind the shot…

 

[Waddball]

As you can see, the right side (the "higher" hip) pivots out to the right as your swing comes through center. YOU SHOULD NOT BE THINKING ABOUT PIVOTING. Just focus on rocking those hips forward in the pump, back in the backswing, and forward again to brace.

I just worked on this yesterday. I'm apparently dense, or more likely just fairly stiff through the hips, and...I could go on about my deficiencies, but will stop. I find that when I do this rocking (and not thinking about pivoting) I tend to jam my trailing leg into my leading. I don't "clear" effectively, per those SW22 golf threads about humping the goat, et al.

I was aiming for that obvious Dave Feldberg hip shift (and that McBeth does, and many others), but I jammed up and felt bad things through my lower back. If I don't think about it, I stay more lateral and don't get that finishing tilt up; smoother, but not catching the momentum.

Anyway, what's the way to synthesize this hip rocking with a good clearing motion (keeping hips fluid instead of jamming)?

 

[crd 81]

Great gif showing how:
1. When MJ stops jabbing for feel he immediately puts pressure backwards (away from target) on the lead foot.
2. Soon after the pressure is applied backwards his mass starts moving backwards into a backswing / reach back, lead by the pressure.
3. Quite some time before all mass has moved backwards he shifts and puts pressure forward with his back foot instead. (Just like you would when cracking a whip.)
4. Max reach back at the same time all pressure has moved forward. Now all mass starts moving forward again, following the direction of pressure, just as before.
5. Pressure on the lead foot resisting the mass moving forward for balance and brace.


The result is effortless distance and accuracy. Mass is riding along with pressure change, following it, lagged behind. There only needs enough muscle control to:
1. Stand up athletic.
2. Guide the disc (relaxed) so that all levers will travel and whip through with maximal effect.
3. Get your trail arm tight so that your shoulders and body can rotate through without being hindered.

While truncated a little bit by MJ's throwing with a slightly bent elbow, you can really see a real life example of what SW22's doorframe drill looks like.

Butt leads the weight shift from back to front.