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Rocking the Hips

Yes, ish, there has been lots of talk recently on facebook about spinning the hips actively, this is wrong and got me angry and made me make this video. However actually focusing on the shift is again IMO not the best plan, focusing on everything Sidewinder films about balance and movement is a better option, by being in balance the shift will happen naturally.

I love all of Sidewinders movement drills, things like the elephant walk, the riding the bull, practising those sort of movements will make the shift happen naturally.

The hips spin because of the lateral shift. They will spin but don't try and make them spin.

So I've been reading this thread and not really even sure what Rocking the Hips means? But after watching your video, I "think" I understand a little bit better now, but have questions.

So in your video you're holding onto that stick and showing a dynamic position the body would be in during a proper throw. And specifically right when your plant foot comes down. And you talk about how the Hips are so important to get the power for the throw, and I guess I don't really understand it.

In slow mo, you move your hips maybe 2-4" forward once your plant foot touches the ground. And then move your hips back and fourth a little just to show their movement. And in a throw where there is an X step, you wouldn't even know that was a thing the thrower was actively trying to accomplish!

So one question is, HOW does that little tiny movement of your hips shifting forward make such a big difference? And then, how do you do it?

Second, is your rear/left foot/leg ACTIVELY pushing your body forward HARD coming out of the X step, in order to get onto the plant foot? Or is it more of a thing where you're letting gravity just casually bring your right leg forward and FALLING into the plant? I can never tell with certain players if they are pushing or falling into the plant? And some players look like they move really fast near the end, while others move slower overall. Yet they both end up throwing far. So I just don't understand how this almost imperceptible movement of actively shifting the hips forward BEFORE you begin your pull can make such a huge difference? As this thread alludes too. Should I be feeling like I need to get my right/plant leg quickly out in front of me? Or casually let it swing towards where I'm going to plant and why?

In addition, some throwers bring their left foot step behind in the X step, farther or shorter behind them. And I don't understand why or which is better, etc? As well as hoping (aka Seppo) vs a more low linear version (aka Simon).



So here you have Eagle who looks like he's FALLING forward out of his X step, and his left foot step behind is a medium distance behind him
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Then Simon with a HUGE left foot step behind and looks much more centered or almost a tad leaning back during the transition
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Then Seppo with a hop out of the X step but with a small step behind him and looks to be centered during the transition but leaning forward a tad
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So one question is, HOW does that little tiny movement of your hips shifting forward make such a big difference? And then, how do you do it?

Second, is your rear/left foot/leg ACTIVELY pushing your body forward HARD coming out of the X step, in order to get onto the plant foot? Or is it more of a thing where you're letting gravity just casually bring your right leg forward and FALLING into the plant? I can never tell with certain players if they are pushing or falling into the plant? And some players look like they move really fast near the end, while others move slower overall. Yet they both end up throwing far. So I just don't understand how this almost imperceptible movement of actively shifting the hips forward BEFORE you begin your pull can make such a huge difference? As this thread alludes too. Should I be feeling like I need to get my right/plant leg quickly out in front of me? Or casually let it swing towards where I'm going to plant and why?

In addition, some throwers bring their left foot step behind in the X step, farther or shorter behind them. And I don't understand why or which is better, etc? As well as hoping (aka Seppo) vs a more low linear version (aka Simon).
In most any sport you make a linear move or stride of your CoG to create a whip effect.

Do you fall or drive in a walk, or is it both? It is a combination of falling and loading and driving and catching yourself, just like walking or running.


 
Anyway, what's the way to synthesize this hip rocking with a good clearing motion (keeping hips fluid instead of jamming)?

Smoothly swing something heavy (don't hurt yourself, take it easy). Don't use your arm muscles to move whatever mass you choose (hammer). Let the weight of the hammer pull your arm down taut through your shoulder socket, and use your lower body to swing it. When we walk, our arms swing. It's not active - it's a consequence of our lower body moving.

This is why I'm a big proponent of the pendulum swing - it makes things, in my experience, a hell of a lot easier to figure out - how we can "abandon to gravity" the disc/weight we are trying to sling, and simply by walking, the object has inertia. If we get the timing...errr...sequence somewhat correct, we can really put some speed on the disc with little to no arm input.
 
Smoothly swing something heavy (don't hurt yourself, take it easy). Don't use your arm muscles to move whatever mass you choose (hammer). Let the weight of the hammer pull your arm down taut through your shoulder socket, and use your lower body to swing it. When we walk, our arms swing. It's not active - it's a consequence of our lower body moving.

This is why I'm a big proponent of the pendulum swing - it makes things, in my experience, a hell of a lot easier to figure out - how we can "abandon to gravity" the disc/weight we are trying to sling, and simply by walking, the object has inertia. If we get the timing...errr...sequence somewhat correct, we can really put some speed on the disc with little to no arm input.
Thanks. I can do this reasonably well with a heavy object if I don't really think about the hips. But as soon as I try to "catch" that momentum at the end with a noticeable tilt (lead hip higher), that's when things go wrong. I think I'm trying to come to an abrupt lateral stop.

I've used the pendulum swing in my throws in the past, but struggled with high/low releases, and also with wide-narrow-wide (pendulum/gravity wants to be narrow the whole ride, risking rounding for me). So I use the "work around the disc" method. I definitely feel the advantages of that tautness, but for me, the disadvantages have outweighed it. But I'll revisit in light of this hip stuff.

Some good stuff to work on!
 
how we can "abandon to gravity" the disc/weight we are trying to sling, and simply by walking, the object has inertia. If we get the timing...errr...sequence somewhat correct, we can really put some speed on the disc with little to no arm input.

If you use an actual sling, and spin it horizontally around your head, and let go one end, your rock will plop harmlessly about ten feet in front, regardless how fast you're spinning.

Slings don't actually work by centrifugal/centripetal (don't want to start that argument here).

They work because you give a mighty throwing motion yank against the inertia of the stone moving backwards, with the leverage of the length of sling adding to your arm. (and of course you have to time or sequence that just right) When you do this you can throw that rock a long way. Hitting anything, well that's not gonna happen.................

Just thought I'd add this because I've spent a lot of hours over the years throwing rocks with a sling, don't know if this applies to the disc or not. But when you make that throwing motion, you move the center of your spin forward a short distance, and that translates to power.
 
If you use an actual sling, and spin it horizontally around your head, and let go one end, your rock will plop harmlessly about ten feet in front, regardless how fast you're spinning.

Slings don't actually work by centrifugal/centripetal (don't want to start that argument here).

They work because you give a mighty throwing motion yank against the inertia of the stone moving backwards, with the leverage of the length of sling adding to your arm. (and of course you have to time or sequence that just right) When you do this you can throw that rock a long way. Hitting anything, well that's not gonna happen.................

Just thought I'd add this because I've spent a lot of hours over the years throwing rocks with a sling, don't know if this applies to the disc or not. But when you make that throwing motion, you move the center of your spin forward a short distance, and that translates to power.

I could certainly be using the terminology incorrectly. I chose the term 'sling' mainly because when we think of 'throw', we think of activating the arm muscles primarily as the driving action. Perhaps 'toss' would be better. The main point I'm trying to get at is, we have millennia of evolution built into us which allows us to toss something heavy mainly by using the ground and our lower body.
 
I could certainly be using the terminology incorrectly. I chose the term 'sling' mainly because when we think of 'throw', we think of activating the arm muscles primarily as the driving action. Perhaps 'toss' would be better. The main point I'm trying to get at is, we have millennia of evolution built into us which allows us to toss something heavy mainly by using the ground and our lower body.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was just thinking that the lateral movement of the center or axis of rotation loads force against an inertial mass. When you use a sling you can feel that. At least I think I can.

Oh, well, since the sling topic came up, I'll share a portion of an off topic article beloved to many slingers, and maybe with some application to forehand:

While stationed at Biggs Air Force Base (now defunct) in El Paso, Texas in 1963, I had the rare opportunity to be shown how to construct and use a "proper sling" by a 75 year old master whose heritage was Mescalero Apache. I never could properly pronounce this gentleman's given name, but he preferred to be called Grandfather anyway as it was a term of respect.
The sling he removed from his pocket was somewhat worn and unimpressive to see which belied what he and it were truly capable of. Mentally I was comparing him with other slingers I'd seen. I'd become accustomed to observing wasted motion and inaccuracy as the norm. His calm demeanor and unhurried movements added to my misconceptions. After his first two casts, it began to register what I was actually seeing. This old dark-skinned gentleman transformed before my eyes to the embodiment of a trained hunter and a fearsome warrior. His strength and speed left me speechless.
At approximately 35 yards or less his accuracy was more than equal to the fictional Ayla*. He explained that after that distance the stone lost velocity rapidly which would make kills more difficult, but his accuracy seemed barely affected. His demonstration target was the bottom metal climbing rung on an old style telephone pole which he easily hit more than 80% of the time with such extreme speed and force that the stone would fracture into small pieces while the rung itself rang like a loud, dull sounding bell. He matter-of-factly claimed similar accuracy on moving targets. To the best of his knowledge, his Mescalaro tribe had been using slings for centuries for hunting or combat and could kill a deer or warrior with equal ease.
While he was growing up, before the turn of the 20th century, his tribe was restricted to a small area of reservation land so hunting was difficult at best. They were not permitted to legally possess firearms until the second decade of the 20th century, after having been forcibly disarmed in 1880 by an order from Col. Hatch of the U.S. Army. If they missed a throw, then they usually went hungry because the food the U.S. government dispensed was always too small in quantity and was frequently contaminated. He firmly maintained that his methods were the best and I could find no fault. The following text summarizes his instructions through actions and verbal communication.

The Logic

1. When in throwing range of wild game or an enemy, it is unlikely they will stay still while a two-legged predator stands and twirls a weapon in circles. The prey will likely be long-gone or the enemy may shoot long before any projectile can be slung.
2. When you wound a predator with a bullet or arrow, it doesn't usually carry a personal risk factor, but missing a fatal spot with a rock can merely anger some predators (personal experience), so keep at least a good size knife and first-aid kit handy.
3. When asked about the David & Goliath technique, Grandfather would smile and say that "the more times you spin the sling, the more you increase your chances of missing, even on a non-moving target."
4. A taller person can use a longer sling for greater speed but they are a bigger target for game to spot or for an enemy to hit (Grandfather stood about 5'7″).
5. The necessity for speed when using a sling is absolute but it only comes with practice.

The Technique
Target practice should be approached with an attitude of the hunter. You never know when it might be needed for that purpose and it makes practice more interesting. (To those of you who have practiced by twirling the sling, this Apache method may seem like a very short anti-climax but please give it an honest try. L.W.F.). For the purpose of hunting, practice while standing on uneven ground and from behind partial cover. While hunting, after you've stalked within range (or placed yourself in front of a target while practicing), stand very still while facing your prey with your body at an angle of about 45 or more degrees. Pick an open spot to throw from. You should have previously removed any backpack, gloves, wide-brim hat or heavy coat that is restrictive. Keep the throwing arm side of your body to the rear, hidden from the target's line of sight. Hold your visible arm close to you, across your body. The animal is not necessarily sure you are a human predator until you show your arms. Don't stare directly at the animal until you are ready to aim and throw.

If you have not already loaded the stone, do it now by keeping the sling behind you (out of sight from your prey) with the cords gripped about 2″ from the pouch. Insert the stone in the pouch (behind you) and slowly let both cords slide through your hand (behind you) until the pouch stops just above the ground. Quickly concentrate visually on the smallest kill spot possible.
Without hesitation and without moving a step, very quickly swing your arm and sling up from behind you and over the top in an overhand throw while attempting to keep your arm as straight and long as you can for airspeed. Put your body fully behind it in a fast turning motion similar to a baseball pitcher but without the step. Be aggressive and make all motions as large as you can. It's usually harder to correct a bad habit than to learn it right the first time. You may try a forward step as you throw but I believe you'll find that it slows you down. The body motion requires more twisting than an Atlatl or Tomahawk throw.
The whole action is over from start to stop in less than a second and the arm has swung less than 360 degrees. If your muscles are not used to this motion, start slow and work up to speed over a period of time. Speed and accuracy will only come with daily practice and everyone, male and female is a potential master.
I hope these condensed instructions are of help. Good luck and pleasant throwing.
– L.W. Forsyth
 
I've been working on this and trying to use it for more power but I was wondering if this causes everything to release on hyzer? I'm having trouble not dropping my arm down when the hips go up during the swing. How do you all get a nice flat release?
 
I've been working on this and trying to use it for more power but I was wondering if this causes everything to release on hyzer? I'm having trouble not dropping my arm down when the hips go up during the swing. How do you all get a nice flat release?

Rock the hips, not the whole body. I bet your spine is tilting away from target at release. Try to land balanced on your hip - not inside or outside of it in a way that you lose balance.
Throw something heavy like a big duffel bag or a medicine ball. It will feel pretty weird if you land extended on your hip tilting your spine to- and away from target.
 
Rock the hips, not the whole body. I bet your spine is tilting away from target at release. Try to land balanced on your hip - not inside or outside of it in a way that you lose balance.

Dead on. You've identified the main hurdle people face when trying to rock the hips. It's something I struggled with on and off. You'll start throwing short shots and not understanding what has changed because you're focused on the rocking motion only.

So there are two things happening here. Your hips are tilting, but the x-step is designed to keep your balance while they tilt. Add in the forward momentum with more than a walk-up, and it's going to feel like you're falling forward.

If you're stopping, spine tilted backward, hyzer angle to the sky... you're likely out of balance like navel said. The key is to keep your head/spine/swing center in front of your rear knee during the x-step and brace. When you do it right, it'll feel like redirecting your forward momentum into the disc rather than trying to abruptly stop the momentum and have that be what flings your arm forward.
 
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I've been working on this and trying to use it for more power but I was wondering if this causes everything to release on hyzer? I'm having trouble not dropping my arm down when the hips go up during the swing. How do you all get a nice flat release?

navel is right - you're probably tilting your spine too much backwards away from target at release when you practice this. I also did this when first trying to feel the "Rocking the Hips" sensation. Not only did everything release on hyzer, but also really really high like my discs could touch the sky.

This is really good advice:

Throw something heavy like a big duffel bag or a medicine ball. It will feel pretty weird if you land extended on your hip tilting your spine to- and away from target.

If you're holding a heavy medicine ball to the outside of your body away from the target and you tilt your spine away from the target (with the front hip rocked upward above the back hip), you'll probably fall over. You can, however, throw a lightweight disc from this position.

Your spine actually counterbalances the pelvis tilt, so at the forward swing position think of more of a C shape* vs. a \ shape, which causes your discs to spread their wings and fly away, or have that high hyzer trajectory.

*
/
\

The "Rocking the Hips" feeling is more subtle than you think. When you walk forward normally, your hips move up and down in relation to each other as they also swivel about each leg - do you feel that your hips are "rocking" when you walk? Probably not; but they are. The right hip, for example, is most "rocked" above the left hip in the walking motion when the right foot is planted and the left leg swings alongside it.

Something that I learned when scrambling beneath a fallen tree on the course recently is that trying to move laterally underneath objects really exaggerates the "Rocking the Hips" feeling. Find something you can squeeze beneath, or imagine something. Stand sideways to it and try to move underneath it. You'll really stack your weight on the outside leg as the opposite leg drops and swings and moves laterally underneath the object. Think of this as the backswing position with outside hip above inside (or target-side) hip. Then as you move underneath to the other side of the obstacle, the system reverses with the hip that was once higher now lower.

Here's one more motion you're probably familiar with that exaggerates the "Rocking the Hips" feeling: go get into the driver seat of your car. Notice how your spine tilts away from the car just as your left leg pushes your body toward it. The left hip is "rocked" above the right, and then the system reverses as you plop into the seat.
 
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Something that I learned when scrambling beneath a fallen tree on the course recently is that trying to move laterally underneath objects really exaggerates the "Rocking the Hips" feeling. Find something you can squeeze beneath, or imagine something. Stand sideways to it and try to move underneath it. You'll really stack your weight on the outside leg as the opposite leg drops and swings and moves laterally underneath the object. Think of this as the backswing position with outside hip above inside (or target-side) hip. Then as you move underneath to the other side of the obstacle, the system reverses with the hip that was once higher now lower.

Man this is fantastic. I'm a big fan of swing thoughts that allow me to perform an action I do in every day life. Thinking about shifting laterally underneath something immediately helped me shift and compress better than I ever have.

Bradley Williams has some coaching sessions on his YouTube and I watched him try to explain shifting to one of his students. Feel like we need to let him in on some of SocraDeez gems

 
The infuriating part of this discussion is that it is so, so simple. It is so simple you will actually feel like there was something wrong with you once you figure it out.

I feel like if any human just stands up, starts with their feet parallel, and their lead arm 100% limp, and they try to make their arm do all of the shapes of the backhand shot form, they WILL figure it out. You just naturally start rotating your torso with perfect timing if you do it this way, you will naturally start staggering your feet and crushing the can, but the goal has to ALWAYS be a limp arm being manipulated into those poses with no effort from the arm itself.

The paradigm shift is one of the weirdest hurdles I've ever had retrospect on and its just so freaking easy once you know what you are actually trying to do.
 
The infuriating part of this discussion is that it is so, so simple. It is so simple you will actually feel like there was something wrong with you once you figure it out.

I feel like if any human just stands up, starts with their feet parallel, and their lead arm 100% limp, and they try to make their arm do all of the shapes of the backhand shot form, they WILL figure it out. You just naturally start rotating your torso with perfect timing if you do it this way, you will naturally start staggering your feet and crushing the can, but the goal has to ALWAYS be a limp arm being manipulated into those poses with no effort from the arm itself.

The paradigm shift is one of the weirdest hurdles I've ever had retrospect on and its just so freaking easy once you know what you are actually trying to do.

To me, limp arm seems most obvious in Calvin's drives (or perhaps less obfuscated by personal style).
 
To me, limp arm seems most obvious in Calvin's drives (or perhaps less obfuscated by personal style).

After the fact, it is obvious in everyone. I just think people should start with their own body with a very simple goal, and see how THEY end up making that simple thing happen. Trying to emulate form like its a series of yoga poses is just a huge thing in this sport.

90% of the casual players I see at courses are fundamentally throwing wrong, the entire concept of their goal is wrong, I just can't name another sport like that lol.
 
After the fact, it is obvious in everyone. I just think people should start with their own body with a very simple goal, and see how THEY end up making that simple thing happen. Trying to emulate form like its a series of yoga poses is just a huge thing in this sport.

90% of the casual players I see at courses are fundamentally throwing wrong, the entire concept of their goal is wrong, I just can't name another sport like that lol.


I agree, and I'm often one of those players. It's a real mindf$ck if you've developed bad habits. Your brain and body think to throw farther you need to go faster and try harder, where really the opposite is true. I agree there is no other sport like it, which makes it infuriating but addicting at the same time.
 
The infuriating part of this discussion is that it is so, so simple. It is so simple you will actually feel like there was something wrong with you once you figure it out.

I feel like if any human just stands up, starts with their feet parallel, and their lead arm 100% limp, and they try to make their arm do all of the shapes of the backhand shot form, they WILL figure it out. You just naturally start rotating your torso with perfect timing if you do it this way, you will naturally start staggering your feet and crushing the can, but the goal has to ALWAYS be a limp arm being manipulated into those poses with no effort from the arm itself.

The paradigm shift is one of the weirdest hurdles I've ever had retrospect on and its just so freaking easy once you know what you are actually trying to do.

Yep.
 
I agree, and I'm often one of those players. It's a real mindf$ck if you've developed bad habits. Your brain and body think to throw farther you need to go faster and try harder, where really the opposite is true. I agree there is no other sport like it, which makes it infuriating but addicting at the same time.

I do think that throwing far takes a lot of power and speed. It is the overall mental picture of what you are trying to apply that speed to that is so commonly misunderstood. I actually halfway figured this out earlier on, but was still totally sure I had to use my arm to 'hammer' the nail because it kinda/sorta worked to get me out to 320-330ish.

Only when I completely abandoned that entire idea, and actually embraced the fully limp noodle arm concept, did I actually 'get' it.

I honestly believe most people could throw 300+ on day 2 of playing this game if they had their mind set on that one thing, then built all the rest of the stuff around that.

Rocking the hips is like, seriously, one of the most primitive instincts we have lol. If you apply the concept to the right goal you will, yourself, be able to figure out how to build power from the movement.
 
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