Rocking the Hips

[RowingBoats]

Great post man. That little figure 8 move takes a while to get a feel for. It comes and goes for me, but I'm getting more consistent with it. When I get it right it's like omg disc golf is so EZ why haven't I been doing this all along? Then I'll loose the feel for it and for about 2 weeks I'm just lost lol.

One player I like to watch is Josh Anthon. His entire swing, from putt to distance bombs, is built around that little "figure 8".

Putt



Upshot



Smash

That drive gif was one of the things that triggered a bunch of revelations to me lol, now even moreso I can see it. I admit that for a while I interpreted his herculean effort as still hammering the end with his arm actively, but really, most of that face-wincing effort is simply him trying to hold onto that disc lol.

Edit: Which brings up a topic I have lately been wanting to read more or discuss...is there a thread that hints at the possibility that grip strength alone might be one of the biggest factors in distance? That is how I have been feeling lately. I can swing my disc way, way harder than I can hold onto it seems.

 

[Waddball]

That drive gif was one of the things that triggered a bunch of revelations to me lol, now even moreso I can see it.

That drive gif took me away from using a dingle arm. So a tradeoff between better whip/power and control over swing plane and accuracy (for me; I get not everyone suffers from this).

I'm probably not getting this, but for me this is an ironic example if you're advocating a dingle arm.

 

[RowingBoats]

That drive gif took me away from using a dingle arm. So a tradeoff between better whip/power and control over swing plane and accuracy (for me; I get not everyone suffers from this).

I'm probably not getting this, but for me this is an ironic example if you're advocating a dingle arm.

I understand, I saw it the same way for a while too. He is not powering that shot with his arm though. Now, what I see is the blurry insane acceleration at the very end, which is not possible strong-arming the disc.

I do see it though, looks like he's really 'trying' hard with that arm, but its just that its hard as hell to hold onto a disc going that fast.

 

[sidewinder22]

Which brings up a topic I have lately been wanting to read more or discuss...is there a thread that hints at the possibility that grip strength alone might be one of the biggest factors in distance? That is how I have been feeling lately. I can swing my disc way, way harder than I can hold onto it seems.

It does seem that many of the longer throwers have big hands and grip strength. When I shook Avery's hand mine was like a little kid comparatively.

I kind of feel like I can hold on all the way thru with my fan grip and I don't think I have crazy grip strength. I think it has more to do with grip ergonomics and swing path. Kind of goes back to the myth of disc pivot thread and 2 finger grip and being in control of the disc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvsHetJkKFo#t=2m5s
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24903

 

[seedlings]

That drive gif was one of the things that triggered a bunch of revelations to me lol, now even moreso I can see it. I admit that for a while I interpreted his herculean effort as still hammering the end with his arm actively, but really, most of that face-wincing effort is simply him trying to hold onto that disc lol.

Edit: Which brings up a topic I have lately been wanting to read more or discuss...is there a thread that hints at the possibility that grip strength alone might be one of the biggest factors in distance? That is how I have been feeling lately. I can swing my disc way, way harder than I can hold onto it seems.

It takes me about 60 throws - emptying my bag three times on a field before this kicks in. All before that I feel like I am 'aiming' instead of torquing. In a round, I might get one throw right. I guess repetition will eventually prevail. I guess repetition will eventually prevail. I guess.

 

[azplaya25]

That drive gif took me away from using a dingle arm. So a tradeoff between better whip/power and control over swing plane and accuracy (for me; I get not everyone suffers from this).

I'm probably not getting this, but for me this is an ironic example if you're advocating a dingle arm.

It's really easy to misinterpret what is happening here, I had to read the one piece take away thread about 150 times and I still mess it up. Easiest to feel with a hammer - everything moves back together in the backswing. That is key. The shoulder and upper arm are one unit, and the lower arm is basically a nunchuck attached to it.

 

[azplaya25]

That drive gif was one of the things that triggered a bunch of revelations to me lol, now even moreso I can see it. I admit that for a while I interpreted his herculean effort as still hammering the end with his arm actively, but really, most of that face-wincing effort is simply him trying to hold onto that disc lol.

Edit: Which brings up a topic I have lately been wanting to read more or discuss...is there a thread that hints at the possibility that grip strength alone might be one of the biggest factors in distance? That is how I have been feeling lately. I can swing my disc way, way harder than I can hold onto it seems.

Getting way away from Rocking the hips, but I think Josh's distance comes in part by how he levers the disc out with his thumb and finger spring. I can feel this when swinging the hammer . You can feel the difference in the tendon bounce if you swing back and forth vs swinging back with thumb and index off the hammer then adding them back on in the forward swing. It really loads up your fingers and the disc/hammer absolutely launches

 

[Waddball]

Easiest to feel with a hammer - everything moves back together in the backswing. That is key. The shoulder and upper arm are one unit, and the lower arm is basically a nunchuck attached to it.

That's the heart of it for me: I cannot (well...yet) create a single-unit shoulder + upper arm, but with a nunchuck attached. I either loosen up the top (and collapse the shoulder to < 90 degrees), or I keep it all structured (and lose the speed).

I have tried with a hammer, but only "pretend" swings to get the feel. But the same thing happens, so I guess I should actually throw the damn thing.

 

[azplaya25]

That's the heart of it for me: I cannot (well...yet) create a single-unit shoulder + upper arm, but with a nunchuck attached. I either loosen up the top (and collapse the shoulder to < 90 degrees), or I keep it all structured (and lose the speed).

I have tried with a hammer, but only "pretend" swings to get the feel. But the same thing happens, so I guess I should actually throw the damn thing.

Yes, you should. Levering the disc out is so much different than strong arming, so it'll take a while to get used to it. I've been hauling a hammer around with me for a year. Also, have you held a hammer and a disc at the same time to make sure your grip and alignment are correct? That was a big eye opener for me. That thumb on the back should feel like the thumb pushing through the flight plate into the inside of the rim

 

[SuperWookie]

I get ya haha, for real. The dingle arm isn't just willy nilly whipping either, but the concept is what you want to center the thinking around in my personal opinion. You still have to send that arm with purpose, but if you play with it like it is just a limp noodle, you will probably be able to figure out how to cause the lag, and then you will start playing with your posture to do the main control of the swing plane.

If you just play with it, and maybe think about sending your hand out in a straight line toward the intended line of the shot, you'll just...realize things. You'll notice that if you open up too early, your hand is way right, so you'll close your shoulders.

Try just standing there and making your lead arm do a figure 8 type shape. Just do that a while, then, start trying to...catch your arm when its falling in the backswing, sending it forward. There is a very natural way to feel that timing that is completely organic and not consciously manipulated.

These new discussions in this thread and few others with a lot of new descriptions of how the swing work is just GOLD! I can't thank you and some of the others enough for sharing your insights and real world feelings of HOW the swing feels and works. I really hope these new discussions finally help me figure this dumb swing out, and lots of others as well. I think it's super helpful to describe all this stuff in real world analogies, like getting into a car or climbing under a branch, the limp arm idea, etc etc. It's all just gold and can't wait to start working on this stuff when I have time. Thank all of you for all this new influx of ideas, so exciting! Keep it going, this is GREAT!

 

[drk_evns]

Bradley Williams has some coaching sessions on his YouTube and I watched him try to explain shifting to one of his students. Feel like we need to let him in on some of SocraDeez gems

I'm not a huge fan of this gif. That motion sort of implies a lot of leg muscling and slow movements. I see what he's getting it, but in reality the transfer happens with the knees close together quickly passing and catching momentum in a balanced stride.

The only person I could think of that really throws that way is Jennifer Allen and she is a very specific case. I'd never recommend that throw to someone.

I'd bet this would lead to tipping for most people... but I also wonder the context he gives to this drill. He may have caveats that cover this. Coaching in person is a much more efficient way to share information when discussing body movements.

 

[SuperWookie]

Dead on. You've identified the main hurdle people face when trying to rock the hips. It's something I struggled with on and off. You'll start throwing short shots and not understanding what has changed because you're focused on the rocking motion only.

So there are two things happening here. Your hips are tilting, but the x-step is designed to keep your balance while they tilt. Add in the forward momentum with more than a walk-up, and it's going to feel like you're falling forward.

If you're stopping, spine tilted backward, hyzer angle to the sky... you're likely out of balance like navel said. The key is to keep your head/spine/swing center in front of your rear knee during the x-step and brace. When you do it right, it'll feel like redirecting your forward momentum into the disc rather than trying to abruptly stop the momentum and have that be what flings your arm forward.

Going off of this amazing info. I think I might be struggling with certain aspects of this, and would love to hear from you and others what is correct, and what isn't.

So I was playing with a guy that absolutely CRUSHES a few weeks ago. He has a silky smooth throwing motion a lot like Seppo or Simon, and throws 500+! And he said he notices that I kind of stall out in the X step (or slow down). He said everything looks really good, like I have good balance and like I know good athletic movement, but then right when I cross my back/left foot behind me and start the forward movement to the plant, he says it looks like I'm a little too far back, and like I slow down a bit. He said I need to get a little more centered or even leaning forward a tad, and much faster into the plant out of the X step. He said in my run up/walk up, to go slow, medium then fastest right into the plant, and that is one way he says he feels like a lot of his energy is going into the disc.

He also said my timing is a little off and early. That my swing has already started and coming through as I'm planting, and that I should plant first, then swing. But I already knew that and still can't figure out HOW to work on NOT throwing before I plant. I can do it no problem with a hammer or heavy trash bag without even having to think about it! It just happens. But put a disc in my hand and NOPE. It's crazy.

But does that sound right? Because what he was saying, sounds an awful lot like what you're saying here Derek... keeping your COG (spine, head, swing center) in front of your rear knee during the x step. The idea of falling forward... that is coming out of the X step into the plant?

 

[RowingBoats]

Going off of this amazing info. I think I might be struggling with certain aspects of this, and would love to hear from you and others what is correct, and what isn't.

So I was playing with a guy that absolutely CRUSHES a few weeks ago. He has a silky smooth throwing motion a lot like Seppo or Simon, and throws 500+! And he said he notices that I kind of stall out in the X step (or slow down). He said everything looks really good, like I have good balance and like I know good athletic movement, but then right when I cross my back/left foot behind me and start the forward movement to the plant, he says it looks like I'm a little too far back, and like I slow down a bit. He said I need to get a little more centered or even leaning forward a tad, and much faster into the plant out of the X step. He said in my run up/walk up, to go slow, medium then fastest right into the plant, and that is one way he says he feels like a lot of his energy is going into the disc.

He also said my timing is a little off and early. That my swing has already started and coming through as I'm planting, and that I should plant first, then swing. But I already knew that and still can't figure out HOW to work on NOT throwing before I plant. I can do it no problem with a hammer or heavy trash bag without even having to think about it! It just happens. But put a disc in my hand and NOPE. It's crazy.

But does that sound right? Because what he was saying, sounds an awful lot like what you're saying here Derek... keeping your COG (spine, head, swing center) in front of your rear knee during the x step. The idea of falling forward... that is coming out of the X step into the plant?

There is just a focus shift you need to make. I wouldn't think about it as "plant then swing" as if it is a timing thing. You literally cannot swing correctly without planting first and 'crushing the can', there will be no power to swing your arm.

Finding a way to connect all of this organically is the biggest hurdle, and from my experience and what helped me, I only started to 'get' it when I figured it out for myself. I did definitely ingest a ton of info, and this is super helpful, but, after you do that you need to stop again - play with your own body, and feel what all of these concepts really mean.

I absolutely guarantee that if you stand up and just 'rock' the hips and keep your lead arm totally loose, you will start lifting your heels to generate more swing in your arm. You will crush the can automatically if you keep everything connected naturally. Then, just start incorporating some of the ideas you no doubt have heard. Keep doing the same basic stuff, but start playing with your posture to figure out how to keep a > 90 degree angle in your upper arm to your torso.

Then, do the hard part and forget that you 'can' throw a disc with your silly arm muscles, and start really believing in this new way of moving, and you'll see lol.

 

[Waddball]

I absolutely guarantee that if you stand up and just 'rock' the hips and keep your lead arm totally loose, you will start lifting your heels to generate more swing in your arm. You will crush the can automatically if you keep everything connected naturally. Then, just start incorporating some of the ideas you no doubt have heard. Keep doing the same basic stuff, but start playing with your posture to figure out how to keep a > 90 degree angle in your upper arm to your torso.

I will testify to the truth of this. I did a bunch of floating arm work and was able to get that figure 8 torso-driven movement. My fingers and thumb ached from the snapping speed. I was also 90% of the time > 90 upper arm. No discs yet though. I tried to stay aware of the hips and to get that smooth "slide under something" idea. Lots more work required but a good reset button on all this for me.

Speaking of figure 8s, though. Standstill (or small jab/plant step), with offset feet, this is pretty easy to do: backswing away from core, forward comes back through the center then away again, etc. But even with a very slow x-step, it's much harder to get the arm away from the center without forcing it. Yet I feel like this is key, as with the more linear backswing it's noticeably harder to keep the shoulder > 90.

 

[RowingBoats]

I will testify to the truth of this. I did a bunch of floating arm work and was able to get that figure 8 torso-driven movement. My fingers and thumb ached from the snapping speed. I was also 90% of the time > 90 upper arm. No discs yet though. I tried to stay aware of the hips and to get that smooth "slide under something" idea. Lots more work required but a good reset button on all this for me.

Speaking of figure 8s, though. Standstill (or small jab/plant step), with offset feet, this is pretty easy to do: backswing away from core, forward comes back through the center then away again, etc. But even with a very slow x-step, it's much harder to get the arm away from the center without forcing it. Yet I feel like this is key, as with the more linear backswing it's noticeably harder to keep the shoulder > 90.

I can't help with the x-step I am exclusively a standstill/one-step player lol. But I don't have any reason to need to throw farther so meh!

 

[navel]

I'm not a huge fan of this gif. That motion sort of implies a lot of leg muscling and slow movements. I see what he's getting it, but in reality the transfer happens with the knees close together quickly passing and catching momentum in a balanced stride.

The only person I could think of that really throws that way is Jennifer Allen and she is a very specific case. I'd never recommend that throw to someone.

I'd bet this would lead to tipping for most people... but I also wonder the context he gives to this drill. He may have caveats that cover this. Coaching in person is a much more efficient way to share information when discussing body movements.

This is what that specific motion should look like. (Gavin Rathbun, who can throw 650 no problems.)
The same thought, but better executed and most of all dynamic. Static movments back and forth will never be the same as a dynamic motion. I can see what I think Bradley is trying to get at though.
However, pressure comes first then mass, going back and forth. I think he's missing that part of the move. The result is a non-rocking motion without staying centered. If he'd do the same but apply pressure going the opposite way as soon as the mass has started to shift then he's going to be rocking all night long (and partying everyday!).

 

[drk_evns]

Going off of this amazing info. I think I might be struggling with certain aspects of this, and would love to hear from you and others what is correct, and what isn't.

So I was playing with a guy that absolutely CRUSHES a few weeks ago. He has a silky smooth throwing motion a lot like Seppo or Simon, and throws 500+! And he said he notices that I kind of stall out in the X step (or slow down). He said everything looks really good, like I have good balance and like I know good athletic movement, but then right when I cross my back/left foot behind me and start the forward movement to the plant, he says it looks like I'm a little too far back, and like I slow down a bit. He said I need to get a little more centered or even leaning forward a tad, and much faster into the plant out of the X step. He said in my run up/walk up, to go slow, medium then fastest right into the plant, and that is one way he says he feels like a lot of his energy is going into the disc.

He also said my timing is a little off and early. That my swing has already started and coming through as I'm planting, and that I should plant first, then swing. But I already knew that and still can't figure out HOW to work on NOT throwing before I plant. I can do it no problem with a hammer or heavy trash bag without even having to think about it! It just happens. But put a disc in my hand and NOPE. It's crazy.

But does that sound right? Because what he was saying, sounds an awful lot like what you're saying here Derek... keeping your COG (spine, head, swing center) in front of your rear knee during the x step. The idea of falling forward... that is coming out of the X step into the plant?

Yes, everything he told you is exactly what I'm talking about. You're tipping in the backswing and that causes a stall in momentum while your upper body catches up to the swing. Stay ahead of your rear knee. It will definitely feel more out of control and like falling forward for a while.

He's right about the early swing too, but that might get better naturally when you're balanced. When I struggle with this I think about firing my hips instead of my arm. Like completely forget the arm. Your muscle memory will take over.

This is what that specific motion should look like. (Gavin Rathbun, who can throw 650 no problems.)
The same thought, but better executed and most of all dynamic. Static movments back and forth will never be the same as a dynamic motion. I can see what I think Bradley is trying to get at though.
However, pressure comes first then mass, going back and forth. I think he's missing that part of the move. The result is a non-rocking motion without staying centered. If he'd do the same but apply pressure going the opposite way as soon as the mass has started to shift then he's going to be rocking all night long (and partying everyday!).

I track what you're saying and you're right. That's the kind of additional context that needs to be peppered in while coaching drills (and why it's so easy to mess up a Seabas22 drill when you're doing it alone).

The main difference is the back knee transitioning to "bowed out" to "bent in." If that makes sense. It indicates the leg is adding to the momentum as opposed to being the sole powerhouse... and the knee "dropping" never happens in the gif. (Interestingly I recently watched some youtube videos from a trendy golf instructor—GGswingtips—that specifically teaches this move)

Without the run-up (and in the gif of the drill above) you have to PUSH all your weight to the front with leg muscles as opposed to gliding/riding it into the plant. I think the GIF itself sends the wrong message.

As I said, the drill could still be useful depending on what BW is coaching with it.

 

[rhatton1]

Stay ahead of your rear knee. It will definitely feel more out of control and like falling forward for a while.

This^

The feeling of falling forward will also make you want to rush through it all faster, your body feels like it's got to catch up to stay in balance. It doesn't. Resist that urge, try to go as slow as possible whilst feeling you are falling forward. It should connect up to an easy feeling swing that sends the disc a long way without much apparent effort.

 

[azplaya25]

This^

The feeling of falling forward will also make you want to rush through it all faster, your body feels like it's got to catch up to stay in balance. It doesn't. Resist that urge, try to go as slow as possible whilst feeling you are falling forward. It should connect up to an easy feeling swing that sends the disc a long way without much apparent effort.

Can't remember who's form thread I saw this in, but SW recommended working the Hersh part 2 drill and just trying to keep the toes of that plant leg touching the wall as long as possible to get used to that falling feeling and staying in balance as you fall.

 

[banzai7]

Can't remember who's form thread I saw this in, but SW recommended working the Hersh part 2 drill and just trying to keep the toes of that plant leg touching the wall as long as possible to get used to that falling feeling and staying in balance as you fall.

I think it was mine. This 'falling forward' feeling seems to be what I'm missing. When I get my momentum moving down the teepad like that I naturally take a huge/long plant step. Not sure how to combat that except drilling.