Rocking the Hips

[Frodo]

Can't remember who's form thread I saw this in, but SW recommended working the Hersh part 2 drill and just trying to keep the toes of that plant leg touching the wall as long as possible to get used to that falling feeling and staying in balance as you fall.

This one little tip of trying to keep the toes on the wall as long as possible has made my throw tremendously better. First time in a long time that the throw felt effortless. Interestingly, even though it felt effortless, my legs got super tired way quicker than normal field work sessions. I think it's cause I was actually using them effectively for the first time.

 

[SuperWookie]

See above - he's getting his foot and knee turned in. His front plant foot looks long as he stretches it out (like a baseball hitter getting ready to wind up), but when it actually hits the ground and he is in full reach back, you'll see it's shorter than you might actually think it is.

And I think you can get away with a longer plant foot step if you're doing the most important parts correct, like the timing, crushing the can, foot/knee/hip turned in and away.

See this is what I'm talking about right here. Here's 6 different photos of Simon and Seppo right at the plant when they are starting the chain to sling the disc. HUGE wide stance compared to their body height. So to me, it seems just about impossible to "rock the hips" when you have a stance this wide. I've tried working on this "rocking the hips" motion, and it only works with a small/narrow plant step. At least as far as how I understand "rocking the the hips." Which according to you guys would be a movement of the hips as shown in the video from Rhatton1 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os3IcGVpoPA Which by the way, LOVE his videos. His way of explaining makes SO much sense. Just can't do some of it still, haha

So what am I missing here? With this rocking the hips idea? Like the baseball references make sense to me. You load up your weight on your back foot in balance, stride forward, plant, then turn your hips open with your arms right behind that and then it all allows you to sling your bat into the ball.

But with this idea of kind of rocking or sliding or tipping your hips back and then fourth in the disc golf throw isn't making sense. You can't move or slide your hips forward once you stretch out your plant foot and plant. You can TURN your hips some, but you can't move them laterally (or at least not very much or in a powerful way, since your legs are spread apart). Only momentum can move them or your whole body forward. So I feel like I'm still not understanding what exactly I'm supposed to be doing with my hips in order to capture this magic of throwing so far with ease.

 

[seedlings]

A still frame sometimes doesn't do justice to a dynamic motion. One could observe from those still captures that all the pros throw with a 'horse stance'. However, the motion of their body is along the line of the throw; the X-step is a linear move. When the lead foot plants, the hips rock with the same linear motion initially. This brief forward movement (rock) of the hips lags the disc way behind, while simultaneously initiating the core and upper body's rotation. Hips first, then shoulders.

Wish I could do it properly.

 

[Nick Pacific]

So what am I missing here? With this rocking the hips idea? Like the baseball references make sense to me. You load up your weight on your back foot in balance, stride forward, plant, then turn your hips open with your arms right behind that and then it all allows you to sling your bat into the ball.
]

Hey I'm with you, I just saw this thread and have been getting into the concept myself. Right now I have been focusing on getting my elbow bent during my pull through, and getting my plant foot/knee/hips turned in from the target (what I've been talking about above) and both have been absolute game changers for me and added a nice chunk of distance and accuracy over the last year.

I've been playing around with the hips rocking thing in this thread. I need to get some video in. I think I have been doing it right from the start but we shall see. My instincts tell me that a lot of this goes back to having an effective plant foot brace. If you're braced down effectively your hips can rock right into the power pocket naturally. I'll let you know what I figure out.

 

[RowingBoats]

See this is what I'm talking about right here. Here's 6 different photos of Simon and Seppo right at the plant when they are starting the chain to sling the disc. HUGE wide stance compared to their body height. So to me, it seems just about impossible to "rock the hips" when you have a stance this wide. I've tried working on this "rocking the hips" motion, and it only works with a small/narrow plant step. At least as far as how I understand "rocking the the hips." Which according to you guys would be a movement of the hips as shown in the video from Rhatton1 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os3IcGVpoPA Which by the way, LOVE his videos. His way of explaining makes SO much sense. Just can't do some of it still, haha

So what am I missing here? With this rocking the hips idea? Like the baseball references make sense to me. You load up your weight on your back foot in balance, stride forward, plant, then turn your hips open with your arms right behind that and then it all allows you to sling your bat into the ball.

But with this idea of kind of rocking or sliding or tipping your hips back and then fourth in the disc golf throw isn't making sense. You can't move or slide your hips forward once you stretch out your plant foot and plant. You can TURN your hips some, but you can't move them laterally (or at least not very much or in a powerful way, since your legs are spread apart). Only momentum can move them or your whole body forward. So I feel like I'm still not understanding what exactly I'm supposed to be doing with my hips in order to capture this magic of throwing so far with ease.

I do get what you are saying but...

Stand up, feet shoulder width apart, square stance. Let your lead arm be limp, and just sway back and forth accelerating your arm.

Now, do it two ways, one with your heels glued to the floor, and another way with the heels able to rise/fall. Which one feels like it adds power, and why?

 

[Sad2980]

Only momentum can move them or your whole body forward. So I feel like I'm still not understanding what exactly I'm supposed to be doing with my hips in order to capture this magic of throwing so far with ease.

I'm still very much a beginner and may be completely off base here, but I think that the momentum is created when you push off of your back foot and into the plant. It seems to me that the plant is to stop the momentum created from shifting the hips during that push.

I think the best throwers use a wide stance because they carry a ton of momentum into the plant and can maintain good form during these high speed throws. I know for me, when I create enough momentum to need a wider stance, every other part of my throw is off because I'm trying to throw too hard and can't maintain good form on high effort throws.

 

[timothy42b]

I don't claim to be able to do it, still working on it.

But as an engineer I have a thought about the terminology.

Momentum is a useful concept because it makes calculation so much easier. If momentum is conserved, and you know momentum at one point, you can use that to calculate velocity at another point, whether linear or angular. That is hugely easier than calculating all the forces and accelerations, converting between time domain and frequency domain as needed, etc.

However momentum doesn't (can't) actually do anything. Forces produce acceleration. If an object increases in velocity, that happens only because a force was applied to a mass, or a torque was applied to a moment of inertia.

If we want to know what is really going on, we look for the forces and the moment arms. That's why ball golfers have force plates and not momentum plates.

 

[seedlings]

I don't claim to be able to do it, still working on it.

But as an engineer I have a thought about the terminology.

Momentum is a useful concept because it makes calculation so much easier. If momentum is conserved, and you know momentum at one point, you can use that to calculate velocity at another point, whether linear or angular. That is hugely easier than calculating all the forces and accelerations, converting between time domain and frequency domain as needed, etc.

However momentum doesn't (can't) actually do anything. Forces produce acceleration. If an object increases in velocity, that happens only because a force was applied to a mass, or a torque was applied to a moment of inertia.

If we want to know what is really going on, we look for the forces and the moment arms. That's why ball golfers have force plates and not momentum plates.

Ha! In my diagram I should have used the term Vector instead of momentum inside the arrow direction of movement.

 

[drk_evns]

See how both knees are in? That allows the femur to come into the hips at a less extreme angle than an actual horestance, allowing for hip movement.

People like Simon are the most extreme example. He's using momentum to extend his last step, pushing off and essentially gliding to the plant. Simon's back foot moves almost a foot forward after it leaves the ground, indicating how much ground he's really covered through that x-step. Seedlings covered it well.

 

[rhatton1]

See how both knees are in? That allows the femur to come into the hips at a less extreme angle than an actual horestance, allowing for hip movement.

Getting really low in an athletic position at this point emphasises this (and makes it easier on the hips) as well and makes it look more extreme in the freeze frames.

On this low though a lot of am players (most of the form threads I see actually) miss out on the transition from high point at the crossover of the xstep to athletic low point at the plant/brace which in the pros is pretty extreme, people can drop more than a foot. (watch their head position relative to a fixed point in the background and you see the drop that isn't something the eyes immediately pickup on from a side on camera view)

I love Sidewinders Gif Of Eagle in the almost ballet plie position, stretched out tall as the feet cross, then compare that to where he drops down to as the lead foot compresses in the ground.

Slightly off topic but I've been on the cusp of filming a video "got to get high to get low" for a while referencing this. Late last year there was a spate of form videos where people had obviously taken the getting crouched thing to heart.

Instead of crouching into the plant though they started crouched before the crossover step and actually rise a bit through the point they should be compressing as a result. It tends to make them go a bit horsestanced as well as messing with timing. Another one of those dangers of well meaning advice going wrong when taken in isolation.

 

[SuperWookie]

A still frame sometimes doesn't do justice to a dynamic motion. One could observe from those still captures that all the pros throw with a 'horse stance'. However, the motion of their body is along the line of the throw; the X-step is a linear move. When the lead foot plants, the hips rock with the same linear motion initially. This brief forward movement (rock) of the hips lags the disc way behind, while simultaneously initiating the core and upper body's rotation. Hips first, then shoulders.

Wish I could do it properly.

Yeah I know that a still frame doesn't always do justice to a dynamic motion. Like I said in my last post: "Only momentum can move them or your whole body forward." So I'm saying, I can see how their linear movement down the tee pad continues all the way into throwing the disc. But what I'm not understanding is this idea of being able to slide or rock or move your hips forward in a way that could add a LOT of power to the swing once you have taken a medium to large plant step? As referenced by the photos. When I watch those throws, I don't see ANY out of the ordinary movement of the hips. It just seems like their doing what they can in the athletic movement of the throw. It's not like they are firing their hips like in a baseball or golf swing, that you can clearly see. They just turn at the same time as the core starts to turn, maybe ever so slightly ahead. But it's not something that you can see. So this idea is very confusing.

When I try to engage or rock or slide or move my hips forward to add power to the throw (when just practicing these movements without a disc in my family room using a medium to wide plant) I can not engage or use my hips in a way that seems to add ANY power or anything at all. Only when I use a very narrow stance (about shoulder width or narrower), can I feel this idea of using my hips to slide in first and create extra power. But then add an X step into the equation and it's instantly lost.

This gif I made here of Richard showing the move is confusing. His hips barely move forward much at all, and with no real power or force. And when watching any pro throw, I also don't see their hips rock or move or slide forward that much either. Or like it's any appreciable amount of hip turn out of the ordinary of an athletic movement. And even if they do move their hips slightly, it seems like it's not with much power.

And I want to be clear, I'm not saying none of this happens. I'm saying, I don't see it, and I don't understand it. I'm very confused how this tiny little slow movement of the hips can seemingly make SUCH a big difference. I can TOTALLY see the hips at work in a golf swing and in a baseball swing. It's super obvious. Not at all with a disc golf throw. So not arguing or contradicting what anyone is trying to say or help with. Just saying, I don't understand a lot of this idea of WHAT exactly the hips are supposed to be doing. And feel like a lot of you are saying "THIS IS THE KEY" to throwing far and well. So it's something I'm really trying to understand and work on. So thanks for trying to explain

 

[seedlings]

Getting really low in an athletic position at this point emphasises this (and makes it easier on the hips) as well and makes it look more extreme in the freeze frames.

On this low though a lot of am players (most of the form threads I see actually) miss out on the transition from high point at the crossover of the xstep to athletic low point at the plant/brace which in the pros is pretty extreme, people can drop more than a foot. (watch their head position relative to a fixed point in the background and you see the drop that isn't something the eyes immediately pickup on from a side on camera view)

I love Sidewinders Gif Of Eagle in the almost ballet plie position, stretched out tall as the feet cross, then compare that to where he drops down to as the lead foot compresses in the ground.

Slightly off topic but I've been on the cusp of filming a video "got to get high to get low" for a while referencing this. Late last year there was a spate of form videos where people had obviously taken the getting crouched thing to heart.

Instead of crouching into the plant though they started crouched before the crossover step and actually rise a bit through the point they should be compressing as a result. It tends to make them go a bit horsestanced as well as messing with timing. Another one of those dangers of well meaning advice going wrong when taken in isolation.

 

[SuperWookie]

I do get what you are saying but...

Stand up, feet shoulder width apart, square stance. Let your lead arm be limp, and just sway back and forth accelerating your arm.

Now, do it two ways, one with your heels glued to the floor, and another way with the heels able to rise/fall. Which one feels like it adds power, and why?

Yes, I have been working on this during all this horrible weather we are having. Stupid hot, humid or raining almost everyday for the last month. Still haven't been able to get out to shoot video of practice throws and movements I've been working on at home. I'm working on just kind of salsa dancing with my hips and body and arm being very loose and seeing what happens, and I think I'm getting somewhere, but not sure. Need to film a video of these practice movements without the disc to see if I'm on the right track.

But I do know exactly what you are saying. If I stand still, feet about shoulder width apart and let my arm just sway back and fourth from the movement of my body, I totally can get more speed into my arm by swaying my hips in a sort of figure 8 type movement, and my feet totally come off the ground with each forward and backward movement.

But as soon as I move my stance to a normal width or a wider stance like what would need to happen in even a small run up, that feeling of being able to rock or sway my hips is instantly lost and I'm not able to do that. It's physically not possible. As my feet get wider, the ability to sway or rock my hips is lost. As well as when I add in a small X step. So I'm not really understanding how this idea can translate to a full swing or with an X step?

 

[SuperWookie]

See how both knees are in? That allows the femur to come into the hips at a less extreme angle than an actual horestance, allowing for hip movement.

People like Simon are the most extreme example. He's using momentum to extend his last step, pushing off and essentially gliding to the plant. Simon's back foot moves almost a foot forward after it leaves the ground, indicating how much ground he's really covered through that x-step. Seedlings covered it well.

I see that, but don't know HOW to do it from an X step of any distance (short and slow or long and fast). I can do that from a stand still. Is that "rocking the hips?" When both knees are bent in?

I also don't understand what this means by: "it allows the femur to come into the hips at a less extreme angle?" I don't follow that at all. And I don't understand what you mean in the second paragraph either. About Simon using momentum to extend his last step........ I do notice how in a Simon or Seppo throw, their back/left foot moves a lot forward the second they have fully planted. That was something I noticed about both of them right away a long time ago. And to me, I just thought it was because of all the momentum from their bodies? Simon because of his HUGE left behind X step and Seppo because of his fairly large hop down into the plant? But NO idea how their hips play any part in that. Especially when both of them have pretty huge plant steps.

It seems as soon as I take a stance wider than shoulder width, the ability to rock, slide, sway or move my hips in a way that adds speed to my arm is instantly lost. Same with an X step.

Also, I sent you a DM Derek :thmbup:

 

[SuperWookie]

Getting really low in an athletic position at this point emphasises this (and makes it easier on the hips) as well and makes it look more extreme in the freeze frames.

On this low though a lot of am players (most of the form threads I see actually) miss out on the transition from high point at the crossover of the xstep to athletic low point at the plant/brace which in the pros is pretty extreme, people can drop more than a foot. (watch their head position relative to a fixed point in the background and you see the drop that isn't something the eyes immediately pickup on from a side on camera view)

I do notice this on a lot of the better/longer throwers. How they come in to the X step at a certain height, then usually their head and body moves up about 3-12" as they get into the back foot coming around in the X step, then as they come out of the X step and fall into the plant, they are lower by about 3-12". But what exactly does this mean? How does this help your throw? What does this have to do with the hips and being able to engage them in a way that helps you throw farther? How can I incorporate this idea into practicing better and working on engaging my hips more? Especially when you are taking a stance wider than shoulder width or adding in an X step?

I love Sidewinders Gif Of Eagle in the almost ballet plie position, stretched out tall as the feet cross, then compare that to where he drops down to as the lead foot compresses in the ground.

Slightly off topic but I've been on the cusp of filming a video "got to get high to get low" for a while referencing this. Late last year there was a spate of form videos where people had obviously taken the getting crouched thing to heart.

Instead of crouching into the plant though they started crouched before the crossover step and actually rise a bit through the point they should be compressing as a result. It tends to make them go a bit horsestanced as well as messing with timing. Another one of those dangers of well meaning advice going wrong when taken in isolation.

I would LOVE to see that video from you, or any other videos you could make! Some of your videos are literally the most eye opening instructional videos I've watched on these confusing ideas. SW22, Hub, yourself and others have all put out such great info, but sometimes certain ways of explaining connect better with certain people. And I just GET your way of teaching! So anything you can or want to make, I'd (all of us) would be very appreciative of!

 

[Waddball]

And I want to be clear, I'm not saying none of this happens. I'm saying, I don't see it, and I don't understand it. I'm very confused how this tiny little slow movement of the hips can seemingly make SUCH a big difference. I can TOTALLY see the hips at work in a golf swing and in a baseball swing. It's super obvious. Not at all with a disc golf throw. So not arguing or contradicting what anyone is trying to say or help with. Just saying, I don't understand a lot of this idea of WHAT exactly the hips are supposed to be doing. And feel like a lot of you are saying "THIS IS THE KEY" to throwing far and well. So it's something I'm really trying to understand and work on. So thanks for trying to explain

This gif is from the "our friend the whip" thread, but it seems applicable here:

That's in slo-mo, and it still looks powerful to me, and not a "tiny little slow movement".

Another that seems applicable is this, from earlier in this thread:

This one's less obviously powerful, but it's still pretty clear what he's doing.

From a personal perspective, I'm with you on still being a little mystified by some of this. I can basically replicate the MJ move, and my standstills have become pretty whippy and consistent. But getting "The Move" into the x-step is still a challenge. I struggle getting my trailing leg to behave as Simon's does (organically; of course I can force it but that's worse than useless), which I think is a good barometer for this move (knees trading up/down as pistons, weight fully off trailing leg). I definitely can't plant as far offline/staggered as he does.

 

[seedlings]

Yeah I know that a still frame doesn't always do justice to a dynamic motion. Like I said in my last post: "Only momentum can move them or your whole body forward." So I'm saying, I can see how their linear movement down the tee pad continues all the way into throwing the disc. But what I'm not understanding is this idea of being able to slide or rock or move your hips forward in a way that could add a LOT of power to the swing once you have taken a medium to large plant step? As referenced by the photos. When I watch those throws, I don't see ANY out of the ordinary movement of the hips. It just seems like their doing what they can in the athletic movement of the throw. It's not like they are firing their hips like in a baseball or golf swing, that you can clearly see. They just turn at the same time as the core starts to turn, maybe ever so slightly ahead. But it's not something that you can see. So this idea is very confusing.

When I try to engage or rock or slide or move my hips forward to add power to the throw (when just practicing these movements without a disc in my family room using a medium to wide plant) I can not engage or use my hips in a way that seems to add ANY power or anything at all. Only when I use a very narrow stance (about shoulder width or narrower), can I feel this idea of using my hips to slide in first and create extra power. But then add an X step into the equation and it's instantly lost.

This gif I made here of Richard showing the move is confusing. His hips barely move forward much at all, and with no real power or force. And when watching any pro throw, I also don't see their hips rock or move or slide forward that much either. Or like it's any appreciable amount of hip turn out of the ordinary of an athletic movement. And even if they do move their hips slightly, it seems like it's not with much power.

And I want to be clear, I'm not saying none of this happens. I'm saying, I don't see it, and I don't understand it. I'm very confused how this tiny little slow movement of the hips can seemingly make SUCH a big difference. I can TOTALLY see the hips at work in a golf swing and in a baseball swing. It's super obvious. Not at all with a disc golf throw. So not arguing or contradicting what anyone is trying to say or help with. Just saying, I don't understand a lot of this idea of WHAT exactly the hips are supposed to be doing. And feel like a lot of you are saying "THIS IS THE KEY" to throwing far and well. So it's something I'm really trying to understand and work on. So thanks for trying to explain

That small hip movement is enough force to slam a car door closed, while not looking like much at all. As SW22, hub and others have pointed out, the butt is like the counterweight to the whipping trebuchet. It has to move, and it's attached to the hips.

I share your 'shroud of mystery' with the hips because I haven't got the hang of it yet. If we overemphasize hips during a throw, then we look like a clumsy runway model. Overemphasis in drills and illustrations serve to trigger the muscle memory mechanics, so that we achieve the right amount of hips in a throw.

 

[SuperWookie]

Found this video while looking for baseball hip movementvideos. Do you guys see these 3 exercises as being very applicable to the Disc golf throw/swing? Or not so much? And are these movements/drills he's doing the same thing as "rocking the hips"? Because if so, I already do this and know how to do this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH3ZxAR1jKY

 

[SuperWookie]

This gif is from the "our friend the whip" thread, but it seems applicable here:

That's in slo-mo, and it still looks powerful to me, and not a "tiny little slow movement".

Another that seems applicable is this, from earlier in this thread:

This one's less obviously powerful, but it's still pretty clear what he's doing.

From a personal perspective, I'm with you on still being a little mystified by some of this. I can basically replicate the MJ move, and my standstills have become pretty whippy and consistent. But getting "The Move" into the x-step is still a challenge. I struggle getting my trailing leg to behave as Simon's does (organically; of course I can force it but that's worse than useless), which I think is a good barometer for this move (knees trading up/down as pistons, weight fully off trailing leg). I definitely can't plant as far offline/staggered as he does.

Yeah, I can do what MJ is doing from a standstill as well. But it doesn't help me throw the disc any farther. It just goes the same distance with a little less effort than if I didn't do that.

And yes, that one video of Simon from behind does look like he's engaging his hips actively and before his core and arm starts to whip through. But no idea how he does it FROM an X step, haha. I can do the movement from a narrow stand still, just not a normal or wide plant step or an X step. So it still is super confusing HOW he does that, and HOW we can do drills to work on accomplishing it.

 

[Waddball]

Yeah, I can do what MJ is doing from a standstill as well. But it doesn't help me throw the disc any farther. It just goes the same distance with a little less effort than if I didn't do that.

That surprises me. If I just rock a little, I get a very average throw regardless of how loose my arm is. But if I really shift, sliding that left butt further, settling the weight, and then catching it, it provides a noticeably faster release. I especially notice the difference in the follow-through, where the left leg kind of mashes into the right and then feels heavy as it sort of bounces back out and then around.

And yes, that one video of Simon from behind does look like he's engaging his hips actively and before his core and arm starts to whip through. But no idea how he does it FROM an X step, haha. I can do the movement from a narrow stand still, just not a normal or wide plant step or an X step. So it still is super confusing HOW he does that, and HOW we can do drills to work on accomplishing it.

Well, okay, but earlier you said:

And when watching any pro throw, I also don't see their hips rock or move or slide forward that much either. Or like it's any appreciable amount of hip turn out of the ordinary of an athletic movement. And even if they do move their hips slightly, it seems like it's not with much power.

Admittedly, that was just a quick example from another thread I'd been following recently so it was fresh in my mind. But I'm sure there are many--and probably better--examples that show what you're not seeing.