The case for overstability

[slowplastic]

Just for fun, I went through that round I mentioned, embedded below. Basically each of the players used some kind of spike hyzer for accuracy at some point in the round. It's mainly a walk down memory lane for me, since I remember being amazed at how well all these guys saved par with these. Paul's was especially impressive. Some of them are shots I could probably make with my arm speed, but some are definitely out of range.

Yeah Paul's shot at 19:10 is that exact range and angle that I find is so useful in a lot of woods situations. And it's a distance/power range that pretty much anybody here can throw it easily. The disc comes down at such an angle it's going to stop really well also.

With your overhand strengths then in the open that likely works great for you. If there's wind then the hyzer is nice because you can go FH or BH to only show the top of the disc to the wind and not get crazy drift happening.

If you want a very vertical spike shot then give the grenade a try.

This is obviously getting quite far away from the original thread of using OS discs/hyzer for placement shots.

 

[Alexplz]

All else held equal, I will reach for something stable and get to the pin with a slight hyzer. How many times out of 100 is this an option though? Not many of my rounds are played in an open field.

Furthermore, if I'm at the edge of my Roc range, where maybe I'd reach for a 6/10 Roc to get some flip and ride, I might roll with that shot over throwing a stable fairway, especially depending on the green and what obstructions we are talking here. This goes the same for maybe choosing a Valk to get somewhere over that Destroyer, etc.

 

[Alexplz]

If you want a very vertical spike shot then give the grenade a try.

100% this. To this day I have never successfully executed a true spike hyzer - I always get more right-to-left drift (RHBH) and ground action than I want. On the contrary, grenades with something overstable just work.

I actually picked up a 148g champ banshee for overhand shots - works great for grenades and is a little easier on one's shoulder - however, it's a little too light, much like a paper plate, to really get a good thumber going. I wonder if maybe a light firebird would be preferable, or possibly a banshee around 160g instead.

 

[slowplastic]

I wonder if maybe a light firebird would be preferable, or possibly a banshee around 160g instead.

Disclaimer is I have never thrown a banshee, I do not bag any sub 165g discs, and have only thrown a couple of 150-160g Firebirds. But they were really really good...go firmly straight way longer than a normal weight Firebird and still hook up dependably for a hefty finish. Almost like a Thunderbird or PD control shot with a Firebird finish and trust. I think I'd get another 20' or so over my 175g Firebird on a flat shot, maybe more but I haven't thrown the light ones enough.

 

[Alexplz]

snip.

This was your 1000th nice :hfive:

 

[arodsteezy]

I actually picked up a 148g champ banshee for overhand shots - works great for grenades and is a little easier on one's shoulder - however, it's a little too light, much like a paper plate, to really get a good thumber going. I wonder if maybe a light firebird would be preferable, or possibly a banshee around 160g instead.

Back when Innova was making those FAF Firebirds, they ran a few red ones in 157-160 range. I had two of them and they were some of best discs I've thrown. They were every bit as stable as a max weight FAF firebird but you could get a bit of speed on them so they would stay "straight" longer. Best overhand disc I've ever had hands down.

 

[zachyattacky]

I can't remember where this graph was made from, but it shows how there's way less landing variation on hyzer lines than when you start introducing any turn. Not to mention if you mess up a bit or there's wind, an OS disc will pretty much ignore those factors. Plus on shorter shots, it lets you throw harder/normal instead of lightening up your power, so you can be more consistent.

If I remember correctly these flight paths were based off the same disc, changing the release angle slightly from hyzer, to flat to anny in varying degrees.

 

[slowplastic]

If I remember correctly these flight paths were based off the same disc, changing the release angle slightly from hyzer, to flat to anny in varying degrees.

I don't doubt that either. I do think you'd get a pretty similar outcome varying stability though too. If that is the same disc with varying angle I would imagine it's something like a -1/3 type of flight. The amount of fade on all of those lines looks pretty similar so I bet you're right.

 

[TAFL]

Thesis Statement:

When throwing at a target that does not require some form of flex or anhyzer, an overstable disc (teebird, thunderbird, etc) is almost always preferred to an understable disc (leopard3, valkyrie, etc).

I reckon not.

 

[Lumi]

If all lines are possible and the distance is something I could reach with a steep hyzer (300ft), I can also reach it with a stable putter or a midrange thown level. I have tried both approaches and at least for me a straight to fade line with a putter or a mid is more consistent than a up and down (spike or close to it) hyzer with a driver.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

Since OS discs are the most predictable over the widest range of conditions, the player can reduce variables in their results by choosing to play OS discs.

Consider: the higher the player's skill level, the greater their desire to have results determined by skill and not other factors.

In addition: Absolute statements regarding human behavior (and its results) are invariably false - if for nothing else than 'exceptions'. Gregg Hosfeld, former PDGA Men's World Champion, would be an exception, certainly earlier in his career.

 

[Steve West]

...Absolute statements regarding human behavior (and its results) are invariably false -...

Almost invariably.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Climo very rarely (never really) throws big hyzers for accuracy.

 

[drk_evns]

Climo very rarely (never really) throws big hyzers for accuracy.

I think that's what sets him apart as the champ. Paul throws gorgeous straight lines too. Better than anyone in the world probably.

There are a lot of scenarios where most pros would go spike hyzer and Paul would go straight. He did it more when he was dominating in 2012-2015, but it still happens now.

Example: Konopiste Teebird3 ace.

For mortals, however, the hyzer is usually the best option.

 

[Bradley Walker]

I think that's what sets him apart as the champ. Paul throws gorgeous straight lines too. Better than anyone in the world probably.

There are a lot of scenarios where most pros would go spike hyzer and Paul would go straight. He did it more when he was dominating in 2012-2015, but it still happens now.

Example: Konopiste Teebird3 ace.

For mortals, however, the hyzer is usually the best option.

I think it is more "monkey see monkey do".

The pros today copy each other... Climo didn't copy anyone, he actually SET trends in nearly every realm of disc golf.

I can throw straight shots with almost no fade, I did not learn to play disc golf throwing a Destroyer. And I am a hack

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

Almost invariably.

that's funny and of course you're 'correct'. after writing that comment i thought to myself how petty and self-indulgent i was for 'seeking' epistemological answers in what amounts to a disc golf 'pro' tip...

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

Climo didn't copy anyone, he actually SET trends in nearly every realm of disc golf.

I've a really hard time swallowing the first part there, but I like to think I understand your meaning - 'copy' is a poor word choice. He had to 'copy' others to a certain extent, if for no other reason than he didn't begin in a vacuum. It's also very unfair to the thousands of 'unknowns' who were models for his mechanics and approaches to the game.

Climo's distinctiveness was that he was really the first 'complete package' in disc golf - astounding durability and persistence...

 

[DiscJunkie]

If you look at some of the old vids of Climo in his Worlds streak years, one thing that sets him apart is his putting skills (consistency and accuracy) compared to the rest of the field. I really don't think he was ever at Paul's or Ricky's ability, but he was head and shoulders better than the field he was competing with (Ron Russell or Cam Todd or Barry might disagree).
Even the 3 players that de-throned him were outstanding at putting (see above).

 

[drk_evns]

I think it is more "monkey see monkey do".

The pros today copy each other... Climo didn't copy anyone, he actually SET trends in nearly every realm of disc golf.

I can throw straight shots with almost no fade, I did not learn to play disc golf throwing a Destroyer. And I am a hack

Paul takes the straight route more often than other pros because of skill, not because he want's to be like Ken Climo.

He talked himself about building his form based on several pros at the time he was coming up. I'm sure Climo had some influence on that, but Paul also talks about not really knowing that much about Climo even while he was playing with him in the early years. He said he didn't realize the significance of playing with Climo until afterwards.

Paul of course takes influence from those that came before him (and Climo didn't just magically become the best disc golfer in the world either) but he was a paradigm shift for the sport (as Climo was before him).