The River

[Carter]

You are basing your assumptions about competency on one mold. And your experience with it is not shared by all who have thrown the disc. If I was basing my opinion of Innova off of their Star katana, I'd think they were incompetent as well. You are making too large of a statement with too weak of an argument.

 

[Ryan C]

I think discspeed may have meant 10 different Rivers.

I don't agree with everything you're saying, but I agree that in the five Rivers I've thrown, they've all had significant low speed fade. But I'm afraid I don't agree that latitude is less consistent than others. Innova has had terrible consistency, in my opinion, as has virtually every other company at one time or another. If one company actually had slightly better consistency, I'd say its Discraft, but I certainly wouldn't call Latitude any worse than Innova, especially not recently.

 

[dgdrifter]

I stated that Discraft and Innova discs "consistently" perform as advertised. And personally, I've found that they're the only ones that do, across the board.

12x Firebird? Star Katana? I know these are only two molds, but they are both complete abortions of their intended purposes. Would you define that as consistent?

So back to "design" again. If your intended design misses the mark, do you just plug in the desired numbers to fill a certain niche for the disc, regardless of whether it succeeded? I think that takes place with the lesser(or less established) brands, definitely.

How would producing an undesirable mold help grow a less established brand? According to your theory, what would be latitude's motivation in producing molds that don't fit into their intended slot?

Look, we know what Lat64 "intended" for the River, they state it quite clearly on their website..."control driver" with "minimal fade", and assign a flight rating of 7,7,-1,1. I think "control driver" is tenuous at best, and lots of user comments/complaints about fade. This leaves 2 possibilities really, they missed the mark on its intended flight, or they claim 7,7,-1,1 erroneously. Take your pick.

The Star Katana's I've seen are super flat, so there's a case there, sure. Have you compared different GL Halo's? Whoa! And were talking about the same plastic.

 

[dgdrifter]

I think discspeed may have meant 10 different Rivers.

I don't agree with everything you're saying, but I agree that in the five Rivers I've thrown, they've all had significant low speed fade. But I'm afraid I don't agree that latitude is less consistent than others. Innova has had terrible consistency, in my opinion, as has virtually every other company at one time or another. If one company actually had slightly better consistency, I'd say its Discraft, but I certainly wouldn't call Latitude any worse than Innova, especially not recently.

Fair enough, Ryan.

 

[dgdrifter]

You are basing your assumptions about competency on one mold. And your experience with it is not shared by all who have thrown the disc. If I was basing my opinion of Innova off of their Star katana, I'd think they were incompetent as well. You are making too large of a statement with too weak of an argument.

"And your experience with it is not shared by all who have thrown the disc."

Not true. There are more comments in this thread talking about fade than the few curious ones claiming no fade for the River.

 

[discspeed]

I was referring to a 162w, so that's not a 20g spread from your 168-173 weights. Point is, Lat claims a "1" LSS for the River. That's simply not accurate. I've thrown it enough at different power levels and release angles to realize that the "1" LSS is bogus.

Tell me that you're not basing far reaching theories about Lat's commitment and design competency on throwing a couple of molds and less than 10 overall discs? Have you only thrown 1 River?

I own 1 River, 2 Halo's and have thrown Vision, Riot, and Mirus. And I have used 40+ different discs in my game at one time or another...all brands, including little known discs like the Helios and Maximizer. What made you assume I had thrown less than 10 discs?

I was talking about Lat64 discs. I've thrown 1 Opto and 2 GL Rivers. The white 175 GL was overstable, fading early and strong. My blue/green 172 Opto has a very late fade, but it is strong. This is good because it can pull it out of quite a hard turn. The other GL I threw had the softest fade of the 3 and was the straightest River I've thrown.

 

[Frank Delicious]

oh I remember FHThrower now, he was the guy claiming that 150 class discs weren't as good.

 

[jubuttib]

Just a side note, my Pro Leopard has more HSS and LSS than any of turso's Rivers I've thrown. And the River is rated 7, 7, -2, 1, not 7, 7, -1, 1.

 

[Carter]

How would producing an undesirable mold help grow a less established brand? According to your theory, what would be latitude's motivation in producing molds that don't fit into their intended slot?

Look, we know what Lat64 "intended" for the River, they state it quite clearly on their website..."control driver" with "minimal fade", and assign a flight rating of 7,7,-1,1. I think "control driver" is tenuous at best, and lots of user comments/complaints about fade. This leaves 2 possibilities really, they missed the mark on its intended flight, or they claim 7,7,-1,1 erroneously. Take your pick.

The Star Katana's I've seen are super flat, so there's a case there, sure. Have you compared different GL Halo's? Whoa! And were talking about the same plastic.

Stop and look at Latitude's flight chart. There are many drivers that have a rating of 1 for their lss. On the chart, some of them finish left. Some of them finish right. If you don't like the way they rate the discs, that's fine. They have a less than helpful flight chart and a rating system that is not very specific. The river is what it is. It's perfectly fine for you not to like it. Just don't make baseless assumptions about a company's competence based on your admittedly limited experience with that company's discs.

And yep, GL halo's do vary in dome and plh. Do star wraiths vary in exactly the same ways? So who gives a damn, it's normal among all manufacturers.

 

[Carter]

"And your experience with it is not shared by all who have thrown the disc."

Not true. There are more comments in this thread talking about fade than the few curious ones claiming no fade for the River.

Are you sure about that validity of the statement? Kind of contradicting yourself :roll:

I will give you praise though. You are excellent at diminishing someone's point of view by interjecting snide, unfounded remarks into your arguments.

 

[Pwingles]

in an effort to get this all back on track and summarize the last few pages, lets try this

Most of us like the river, even tho its flight ratings dont seem to be quite accurate when you use Innova's flight ratings as a basis for all the numbers. Correct?

Between the two plastics there are somewhat varying descriptions of their flight? correct?

Also several different descriptions of dominess, flattness, PLH.

None of this is new, it happens to all manufacturers in some form (even discraft). It doesnt speak to how competent a company is with its product since even the 2 big dogs have this problem as well. It might say something about a companies QC or lack thereof and again, this is disc golf, not NASA so you have to assume a lot of things are a work in progress, even if they get released as a finished product. Otherwise discs would be fully tested for months and months even a year or more before they were released. That costs money, for R and D, potentially new molds and things of that nature. If they were a big corporation it would be in their best interests to test something before releasing it that strenuously. But it simply doesnt make sense for a DG company to do that when all of you guys will buy it either way

 

[dgdrifter]

I was referring to a 162w, so that's not a 20g spread from your 168-173 weights. Point is, Lat claims a "1" LSS for the River. That's simply not accurate. I've thrown it enough at different power levels and release angles to realize that the "1" LSS is bogus.

Tell me that you're not basing far reaching theories about Lat's commitment and design competency on throwing a couple of molds and less than 10 overall discs? Have you only thrown 1 River?

I own 1 River, 2 Halo's and have thrown Vision, Riot, and Mirus. And I have used 40+ different discs in my game at one time or another...all brands, including little known discs like the Helios and Maximizer. What made you assume I had thrown less than 10 discs?

I was talking about Lat64 discs. I've thrown 1 Opto and 2 GL Rivers. The white 175 GL was overstable, fading early and strong. My blue/green 172 Opto has a very late fade, but it is strong. This is good because it can pull it out of quite a hard turn. The other GL I threw had the softest fade of the 3 and was the straightest River I've thrown.

<<I was talking about Lat64 discs. I've thrown 1 Opto and 2 GL Rivers. The white 175 GL was overstable, fading early and strong. My blue/green 172 Opto has a very late fade, but it is strong. This is good because it can pull it out of quite a hard turn. The other GL I threw had the softest fade of the 3 and was the straightest River I've thrown>>

Sounds like we agree about the fade...what's the problem?

 

[dgdrifter]

oh I remember FHThrower now, he was the guy claiming that 150 class discs weren't as good.

Weren't as long, Frank...weren't as long. Now I'm sure you're gonna come back with something like "aren't as long for who?"

I use a few 150 class discs and like em.

 

[jubuttib]

I really haven't had as much fun here before or since that conversation. =)

 

[dgdrifter]

in an effort to get this all back on track and summarize the last few pages, lets try this

Most of us like the river, even tho its flight ratings dont seem to be quite accurate when you use Innova's flight ratings as a basis for all the numbers. Correct?

Between the two plastics there are somewhat varying descriptions of their flight? correct?

Also several different descriptions of dominess, flattness, PLH.

None of this is new, it happens to all manufacturers in some form (even discraft). It doesnt speak to how competent a company is with its product since even the 2 big dogs have this problem as well. It might say something about a companies QC or lack thereof and again, this is disc golf, not NASA so you have to assume a lot of things are a work in progress, even if they get released as a finished product. Otherwise discs would be fully tested for months and months even a year or more before they were released. That costs money, for R and D, potentially new molds and things of that nature. If they were a big corporation it would be in their best interests to test something before releasing it that strenuously. But it simply doesnt make sense for a DG company to do that when all of you guys will buy it either way

Kinda correct re the flight ratings. Except they aren't Innova's, they are Lat64's...right there on their website. And competent probably isn't the right word(I know it's not yours)...more like years of experience in making discs. Otherwise, well said.

I find it hard to believe the bogus 1 LSS they gave the River is accidental. And that's not good. Think about it...

 

[dgdrifter]

I really haven't had as much fun here before or since that conversation. =)

U mean the sail plane vs UFO comparison? Or Frank talking about his super buff construction worker brother-in-law limited to 150's? Oh the pain!

 

[dgdrifter]

"And your experience with it is not shared by all who have thrown the disc."

Not true. There are more comments in this thread talking about fade than the few curious ones claiming no fade for the River.

Are you sure about that validity of the statement? Kind of contradicting yourself :roll:

I will give you praise though. You are excellent at diminishing someone's point of view by interjecting snide, unfounded remarks into your arguments.

How about an honest discussion? You seem to be on both sides in this, no fade and now fade. Which is it?

It basically boils down to this: many comments from many posts affirming that the River has "significant" or "hard" fade. And a few who have taken exception to that. That's hard to reconcile. You can't randomly blame it on dome and/or cooling variations, as you seem to now be doing.

So are we going to keep insisting the River only has fade, if, if and if? That would be absurd. I throw Leopards, Sidewinders, XL's and Cyclones right along side the River, and THOSE discs do have minimal fade, as advertised. Not so the River, and evidently not so for the majority of other people's Rivers judging by the comments in this thread.

But who really gives rat's azz? I made a post here claiming the River is overrated and has a lot of fade. And before and after that post there have been several other posts confirming that. And of course, there's a minority that insist THEIR River has little or no fade. Uh huh.

Go back and read through if you have doubts.

 

[Jeronimo]

So did you guys hear? The River has a LSS of 1, pretty sweet huh?

 

[dgdrifter]

I was a big fan of Latitude 64, even promoting their discs to friends and others on the course. Beautiful discs, the plastic is awesome. A fairly new company offering competition and new choices. All good, right?

I began to have some doubts when 3 GL Halo's(167, 168, 168) flew completely different from one another. They also vary a heck of a lot in flight plate. The flat one I can throw on a rope very straight and pretty low, the superdome one I can't keep down. The 3rd one is a friends and I don't throw it, but I see him throw it when we play and his Hurricane kicks its butt in distance, glide, controllability, and finish. My Force, Destroyer, and Boss kick the Halo's butt...even the good one.

And the River, although a decent disc, does not live up to claimed LSS of 1. It also has a lot of movement for a "control" fairway driver.

 

[Jesse B 707]

It has a lot less fade if you throw harder than a 10 year old girl