Vibram Open 2012!

[elnino]

You realize its not Vibram that made the points series rules, right?

yeah i know i'm just being silly! I have a friend who vibram sponsors i know they are cool company....

I'm an idiot for doing the math completely wrong too.

I just like to support VAL!

did she really go bogey, bogey, double on the last three holes....NOOO! video?

 

[elnino]

Think about it like the super bowl.... Regular season doesn't mean anything... You give youself a chance to win but if you don't perform on the big stage you still lose right?

While this is true, and since i'm not the current mens NT points champ i'll def trust your opinion. The Super Bowl never ends in a tie.

Honestly i think both players are great, glad Cat won just seemed like they were trying to make the point series a big deal and not sure i like the format is all.

Congrats to Cat she def deserves it. I was just thinking Val got robbed.

 

[Dyoel182]

did she really go bogey, bogey, double on the last three holes....NOOO! video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA_kpEywMQE

This talks about it and shows the final hole.

 

[patdb23]

actually what i am saying is that both Val and Cat played all the events and Val scored more points but didnt win and thats pretty lame. You can come up with all the different scenarios you want but i dont see a problem with a system where if you want to have a chance to win a points series you have to play the most events AND do well at them. Thats the way most state points series work that i have seen and some of them have bigger payout then the $1000 NT winner gets. Really dude, you want to use "endurance" to describe playing in 6 tournaments over the course of 6 months or so? Take a look at other sports that use "series points" and see how they work. Really though your argument is moot here because Val and Cat both played all the events so all the events should be used to determine who wins

Yes, in your scenario, it is an endurance race, requiring the winner to play every single event all across the country just to insure they have a chance to win. If they miss one event then they are out of the rat race. Forget the person who has a better record, more wins, count them out because they missed out on just one event. Your current scenario is only hypethetical at best for the simple fact that two (and only two) players played all events. Count out the other 42/44 players since they missed at least one event.

I'm sure that each state does things differently. In our state league we have 19 events this year. We only take the top 4 performances. This is done for several reasons. Not everyone can travel and participate in all 19 events. It allows players flexibility to know that they can choose which events to play in and that if they miss a few they still have a chance to compete for the title. Players are not discounted for having a bad event, they can still improve and be measured by their peak performances. Things do come up in life other than just playing disc golf. Players get injured, players have family matters to take care of, and other personal matters. This all or nothing position is unrealistic for an overwelming number of disc golfers. Think about it, only 5% (2/42) of the Pro women and 8% (9/118) of the Pro Men played in the first five events.

And I'll take a stretch at this. Let's see which major sport rewards the title to the players/team for winning the most events? Is it the NFL, NBA, WNBA, MLS, NHL, MLB? Hmm, nope not one of these top major sports organizations rewards the team with the most wins, sorry, not even one of them. So we can go on and on, and my suggestion to you is if you disagree with the current system then you can always petition to the PDGA and provide your recommendations. The PDGA is very flexible, it was just a few years ago the POY was voted by the board. Now it's based on a point system. And they even made revisions this year to the system. So give PDGA a call, dude http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnLweMNQoiE

 

[sprintermatt]

Here's the part I don't get...

In the case of a tie for the Series Champion the following tie-breakers will be utilized:

1 Head-to-head record at the Vibram Open.
2 Head-to-head record in all National Tour events.
3 Sum of points at all National Tour events
4 Sudden death playoff

Head to head record.

RECORD.

What do you think of when you hear record? Wins losses? Yeah, me too.

noun rec·ord
9.
an act of recording.
10.
the state of being recorded, as in writing.
11.
an account in writing or the like preserving the memory or knowledge of facts or events.
12.
information or knowledge preserved in writing or the like.
13.
a report, list, or aggregate of actions or achievements: He made a good record in college. The ship has a fine sailing record.

I initially read it as head to head FINISH... but upon rereading it, it said RECORD. Records are a historical summary.

In 2011, Val got 3rd, Catrina got 4th.
in 2012, Catrina won, Val got 2nd (T).

To me, that's a 1-1 HEAD TO HEAD RECORD.

 

[patdb23]

I actually agree with you on that and it should at least be one of the tie breakers. But they were both playing under the same rules from the start so even that is a moot point this year. When the PDGA (or someone like Visa) starts flying folks to events so they can all compete at every event they can drop that rule.

It is one of the tiebreakers, #3. And Val would have won by tiebreaker #2 if Cat and Val tied at the Vibram Open.

In the case of a tie for the Series Champion the following tie-breakers will be utilized:
1.Head-to-head record at the Vibram Open.
2.Head-to-head record in all National Tour events.
3.Sum of points at all National Tour events
4.Sudden death playoff

 

[patdb23]

Here's the part I don't get...



Head to head record.

RECORD.

What do you think of when you hear record? Wins losses? Yeah, me too.

I initially read it as head to head FINISH... but upon rereading it, it said RECORD. Records are a historical summary.

In 2011, Val got 3rd, Catrina got 4th.
in 2012, Catrina won, Val got 2nd (T).

To me, that's a 1-1 HEAD TO HEAD RECORD.

To be quite honest, I thought the same thing at first as well. It is somewhat vague and leaves it open to intrepretation. Is it the current record or overall record? But in other sports when they use head-to-head record for tiebreakers it is the present record. Just like tiebreakers in NFL, when they use head-to-head they refer to only the current year. http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

 

[burdphil]

Think about it like the super bowl.... Regular season doesn't mean anything... You give youself a chance to win but if you don't perform on the big stage you still lose right?

Or like the NASCAR "playoff" system, where only the top 10 drivers through the first 30 something races qualify to be in the points chase for the last 10 events.

 

[General Scales]

Yeah one difference between disc golf and Nascar, I don't always want my discs to make a left turn.

 

[sprintermatt]

To be quite honest, I thought the same thing at first as well. It is somewhat vague and leaves it open to intrepretation. Is it the current record or overall record? But in other sports when they use head-to-head record for tiebreakers it is the present record. Just like tiebreakers in NFL, when they use head-to-head they refer to only the current year. http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

That's all fine, except the NFL was smart enough to not use the word RECORD. since it's only one event, the proper terminology would have been head to head finish at Vibram. Head to head record would assume multiple meetings with a win/loss count. Val was 1-0, Catrina was 0-1 coming into THIS VO. After this VO, it's 1-1 each.

 

[patdb23]

That's all fine, except the NFL was smart enough to not use the word RECORD. since it's only one event, the proper terminology would have been head to head finish at Vibram. Head to head record would assume multiple meetings with a win/loss count. Val was 1-0, Catrina was 0-1 coming into THIS VO. After this VO, it's 1-1 each.

I agree 100%, the language should be changed to head-to-head finish at Vibram. And I wonder if that was one of the confusing factors when they announced Cat the winner, then Val, then back to Cat. If this was up to a court, then we would have a "Vibrant" debate .

 

[sprintermatt]

They are both great players, and both have been burned by this snafu... Val initially, then Catrina, then Val ultimately. It's just not the way to finish out a season.

 

[throwfromthewoods]

http://www.pdga.com/vibram-open-nt-prognostication-time

Is where I scratched my head. It laid it out right in there that even if Catrina wins the VO, Val would need to finish 3rd or worse for Catrina to take the points series. Since Val tied for 2nd...I'm lost.

 

[patdb23]

They are both great players, and both have been burned by this snafu... Val initially, then Catrina, then Val ultimately. It's just not the way to finish out a season.

It is certainly a learning lesson, and I do appreciate all the discussion here. It shows that we all don't agree and opening up dialogue allows to see the different points of view and what ways/changes we can make to improve the current system if need be. Obviously something needs to be changed to prevent, yes the snafu, so it doesn't happen again. I feel bad for both ladies, and would hate to be in that situation. I have seen it personally in an NT when the commentator has announced the winner of a division, only to go back minutes later and tell the person they made a mistake, that another card came in and beat that player. No fun for anyone, all learning lessons.

 

[Dyoel182]

In 2011, Val got 3rd, Catrina got 4th.
in 2012, Catrina won, Val got 2nd (T).

To me, that's a 1-1 HEAD TO HEAD RECORD.

You're using multiple years though. This is a one year then reset event.

Is where I scratched my head. It laid it out right in there that even if Catrina wins the VO, Val would need to finish 3rd or worse for Catrina to take the points series. Since Val tied for 2nd...I'm lost.

I think something else earlier showed that points earned from a tie are less than the place outright. That may have come into play.

 

[patdb23]

http://www.pdga.com/vibram-open-nt-prognostication-time

Is where I scratched my head. It laid it out right in there that even if Catrina wins the VO, Val would need to finish 3rd or worse for Catrina to take the points series. Since Val tied for 2nd...I'm lost.

Their analysis was correct, however what they didn't take into account is the scenario of Val ending up in a tie for 2nd. Finish solely in 2nd, receive 95 points, she wins over Cat 390-388. But since she tied, she only received 93 points, tying Cat 388-388.

To me the final battle at the VO, coming down to the wire on the last hole, goes to show that the FPO division has been a thrill all year. Hopefully it encourages more women to come out and play!

 

[the_lung]

http://www.pdga.com/vibram-open-nt-prognostication-time

Is where I scratched my head. It laid it out right in there that even if Catrina wins the VO, Val would need to finish 3rd or worse for Catrina to take the points series. Since Val tied for 2nd...I'm lost.

I think something else earlier showed that points earned from a tie are less than the place outright. That may have come into play.

Bingo. I think that when Steve Dodge wrote the article, he did not consider Val finishing in a tie for second. He does not mention ties for either the men or the women anywhere in the article.

 

[throwfromthewoods]

I understood that the tiebreaker wording of the Vibram Open "head to head record" would (and should) only mean this year. No championship, points series, or season title that I know of in any sport calculates anything from previous years. Slate gets wiped clean at the beginning of every season.

Of course, it's still worded poorly.

And I guess the "what if" guys at the PDGA didn't take ties into account. Shame on them.

All I know is, either of them would soundly kick my ass and make me cry like a 5-year old on ANY course.

 

[Dyoel182]

All I know is, either of them would soundly kick my ass and make me cry like a 5-year old on ANY course.

I would gladly allow it to happen. My wife would probably cheer them on.

 

[_MTL_]

This thread is ridiculous. Nothing is changing.