What I've learned so far about distance

[bnbanbury]

So i don't post much on the technique forums unless i see folks posting questions about putting or upshots, as distance has been a weakness of mine. I was stuck at about 320' with Terns and 300' with fairways and as my short game got better and better it was clear distance is was the major impediment to my scoring. So i have been working in the field 3-5 days a week, reading the posts here, watching Mcbeth slow-mo videos ad nauseam, and watching Shusterick's clinics for months now. Yesterday was my 5th consecutive session with throws breaking 400' (and 1 466'!) and i finally felt like i had something to contribute to this forum in terms of some things that have stood out as most important for me to focus on as my distance has improved.

1.Compressing at the hit- The biggest contributor to my distance has been changing my posture entering the hit and sticking with it past release. I was far too upright in my posture and i would throw my front shoulder open and lift my head during the throw. Allowing my body to drive my front shoulder open and keeping my head down until my back shoulder lifts it has been my number one focus. When i do it correctly it feels like my throwing arm is dragging behind and being whipped around my body by my core.

2. Relaxing- People have said over and over again to be loose and relaxed prior to the hit but it took a long time for this one to sink in. I didn't realize how much more relaxed i could be and how much looser my grip could be during my run up and backswing.

3. Balls of My Feet- I also realized that i was mostly flatfooted during my x step and was getting very little athletic benefit from my feet. it took my a while for me to understand that i could be on the balls of my feet during my run-up and still rotate on my heel.

Those three items have made by far the most difference to my distance. I just wanted to share my experience as for some folks (like myself) some concepts have to be heard in 8 different formats before they really get taken in. I also want to thank HUB, Sidewinder, and other folks in this forum helping people get better. This is all information they have shown in various ways and i am not trying to pass of any off these ideas as original. Just wanted to share my experience with people. :thmbup:

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

That's awesome! Glad to help - though I will gladly take all of the gratitude, we're just standing on the shoulders of giants.

 

[badfish1054]

Congrats on the progress. I like your first point and I think it is something I could improve on. When you say your posture was too upright, how did you change that? Did you actually lean over or did keeping your head down kind of naturally fix that?

 

[bnbanbury]

Congrats on the progress. I like your first point and I think it is something I could improve on. When you say your posture was too upright, how did you change that? Did you actually lean over or did keeping your head down kind of naturally fix that?

Honestly i watched watched lots of Paul McBeth slow motion and tried to emulate his form.

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What i used to do was use my elbow to point down the line i wanted to throw, I would use a wide rail and feel myself come back to that point, and then throw. This was actually pretty accurate, just didn't give me much length. What i noticed with McBeth (and all the other long pros) is that everything is brought in towards their core a little bit, compressed so to speak. The feeling i have now when i am doing my run-up is that I'm rolling my front shoulder closed to the target and pointing down the line with my shoulder blade.

Keeping my head down until my back shoulder picks it up is tied into this idea and is straight out of Shusterick's driving instructional: [YOUTUBE]30cUNsWOYSI[/YOUTUBE]

If i start peeking and watching my drive by turning my head i find that i not only lose the power i get from keeping my spine aligned but turning my head during the hit causes me to open my shoulders early too and miss my line right.

 

[ljerome]

I just posted in the other thread about grip and basically said what you said in your point #2. The motion has to be loose and fluid. "Relaxed aggression" is key to success in many sporting activities.

 

[ash81]

Hey! First of all I want to thank you for taking the time to post this as it is quite inspirational. I honestly feel that positive experiences and success are just as important as all the technical details (My moral can drop quickly when I'm grinding away and nothing seems to change, or at least change for the better consistantly). I have a few questions for you since I'm about in the same boat with driving distance (I had a good day where it all came together and I sent my Blizzard Krait out to 320' give or take a few multiple times as well as increasing distance with mids and putters...but i've fallen back in a slump now).

Point 1: I began throwing too low, forward, and constricted, then changed to as you described "...far too upright in my posture and i would throw my front shoulder open and lift my head during the throw" and spray shots or experience wobble that sends my disc like a reverse spike hyzer. I've felt that dragging, compressed feeling before, but it's fleeting. I'd like to ask you how your lower body feels in that regard, because in a room with a towel, if I turn my feet/knees in lik Sid, I can feel a springiness like it's on tap but seems to get lost by the time it should hit my shoulders and whip (when it is there, it's wild and uncrontrolled. Otherwise when I tense my tricep like Schusterick says, I seem to pull out in front and "strong arm" and I lose that feeling of loaded power/torque.



Point 2: Relaxing is so hard. There are days where I feel it in my neck and arm from just trying to keep some things controlled (basically stiff). Any tips on developing cues/reminders?

Point 3: I'm working on my standstill/one-step before moving on. I've been playing with it in order to become familiar with the movement before going back to SW22's can-crush drill. I can feel pain in my right knee from bracing by not allowing the lower body to break with the follow through, so that's a huge focus for me right now. If I concentrate purely on the brace and allowing the break to happen on my heal and then attempt to walk out of the momentum, I throw nose up and feel like I'm losing power. I guess this works into how the torque is generated from the feet up. I'f I do my old way it's limited and hurts my knee (and I top out around 260' with mids/drivers). I'f I try to do it correctly I seem to lose power and control, but with occasional success out to 320'. Ah well, back to watching the videos. If you can relate to anything I mentioned and offer insight I'd be super greatful.

All that aside, CONGRATS!!! The guys here on DGCR have been great (HUB, SW22, Clard, Slowplastic, Dan Ensor has helped, and anyone else putting in time to help and share knowledge/wisdom). I hope to be hitting clean, powerful distance soon too! Love the post.

 

[bnbanbury]

Hey! First of all I want to thank you for taking the time to post this as it is quite inspirational. I honestly feel that positive experiences and success are just as important as all the technical details (My moral can drop quickly when I'm grinding away and nothing seems to change, or at least change for the better consistantly). I have a few questions for you since I'm about in the same boat with driving distance (I had a good day where it all came together and I sent my Blizzard Krait out to 320' give or take a few multiple times as well as increasing distance with mids and putters...but i've fallen back in a slump now).

Point 1: I began throwing too low, forward, and constricted, then changed to as you described "...far too upright in my posture and i would throw my front shoulder open and lift my head during the throw" and spray shots or experience wobble that sends my disc like a reverse spike hyzer. I've felt that dragging, compressed feeling before, but it's fleeting. I'd like to ask you how your lower body feels in that regard, because in a room with a towel, if I turn my feet/knees in lik Sid, I can feel a springiness like it's on tap but seems to get lost by the time it should hit my shoulders and whip (when it is there, it's wild and uncrontrolled. Otherwise when I tense my tricep like Schusterick says, I seem to pull out in front and "strong arm" and I lose that feeling of loaded power/torque.

View attachment 53816

Point 2: Relaxing is so hard. There are days where I feel it in my neck and arm from just trying to keep some things controlled (basically stiff). Any tips on developing cues/reminders?

Point 3: I'm working on my standstill/one-step before moving on. I've been playing with it in order to become familiar with the movement before going back to SW22's can-crush drill. I can feel pain in my right knee from bracing by not allowing the lower body to break with the follow through, so that's a huge focus for me right now. If I concentrate purely on the brace and allowing the break to happen on my heal and then attempt to walk out of the momentum, I throw nose up and feel like I'm losing power. I guess this works into how the torque is generated from the feet up. I'f I do my old way it's limited and hurts my knee (and I top out around 260' with mids/drivers). I'f I try to do it correctly I seem to lose power and control, but with occasional success out to 320'. Ah well, back to watching the videos. If you can relate to anything I mentioned and offer insight I'd be super greatful.

All that aside, CONGRATS!!! The guys here on DGCR have been great (HUB, SW22, Clard, Slowplastic, Dan Ensor has helped, and anyone else putting in time to help and share knowledge/wisdom). I hope to be hitting clean, powerful distance soon too! Love the post.

So your 1st and 3rd points seems to tie together in that they are both related to getting power from the lower body. For me my main focus has been getting really light and springy on the balls of my feet and keeping my strides under control so that i'm not loosing power as i approach my plant. I essentially take 5 steps in my run up but my 1st two are tiny, one with my right and one with my left, and just meant to get me up on the balls of my feet and get my body starting to turn into my x-step (again modeled after McBeth's throw). With the three steps in my x-step i really try to focus on not letting my 1st two strides get too long and focus on the rhythm of it. 1 2 Pow.

For relaxing one thing that has stuck in my mind is something a ball golf instructor said about gripping a club. he said it should be held like you are "holding a baby bird". I started to realize that even when i relaxed my grip in the back swing to the point of feeling much too light i would reflexively tighten my grip as i moved into the hit. I tried to push the limits of being relaxed (an oxymoron i know), figuring the worst that could happen is that the disc falls out of my hand and i look like an idiot but found it was almost impossible to be too relaxed.

Anyway, thank you for the kind words. I hope any of this is helpful and wish you the best of luck on your disc golf journey.

 

[DiscFifty]

"I didn't realize how much more relaxed i could be and how much looser my grip could be during my run up and backswing." And then understanding when to start gripping tighter, and then ultimately gripping very tight right before ejecting the disc out of your hands. You'll gain distance just by adjusting this aspect of the throw alone. Amazing how all this fits together.

 

[Lunchmoney]

I keep seeing people tell others to relax your arm. But I just don't think that is accurate. I think that for the good pros, their form is so fluid it feels as if they are relaxed. But they aren't. Truthfully, McBeth tenses his entire torso up and releases which causes a whipping motion. Also, if you go to any vids that have a close up of McBeths reach back, u can see that his forearm muscles are bulging. If he was relaxed he wouldn't be bulging forearm muscles. I think the point is to get so fluid it FEELS as if you are relaxed. JMHO.

 

[sidewinder22]

I keep seeing people tell others to relax your arm. But I just don't think that is accurate. I think that for the good pros, their form is so fluid it feels as if they are relaxed. But they aren't. Truthfully, McBeth tenses his entire torso up and releases which causes a whipping motion. Also, if you go to any vids that have a close up of McBeths reach back, u can see that his forearm muscles are bulging. If he was relaxed he wouldn't be bulging forearm muscles. I think the point is to get so fluid it FEELS as if you are relaxed. JMHO.

IMO being relaxed helps improve sequencing with someone who's mechanics are not sound. It allows them to use their body to whip the whole arm and be faster. Not sure that telling someone to be tighter will do any good when their mechanics are off.

McBeth said he used to be loose when he was all about distance, and does loosen up when going for distance, but he has tightened things up for more consistency.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

You can throw loose or tense, there's pros who fall all over the map on that. But, I would put all my money on better results for the guy who is developing his form - on being loose. Tightening muscles and tendons when you don't have things completely locked down is a recipe for tennis elbow, shoulder strain, etc.

 

[jannne]

A fun test for me is to spin putt with both hands as far as they go. Altough I throw RHBH, I'm a leftie. The muscle balance issue is there but it's safe to assume that the difference is not that big that it has any effect on flinging a 175g piece of plastic. Still the difference is staggering, discs thrown with my left hand have lower speed and do not carry as far. Why, when I have about equal amounts of strength in my arms and fingers? Well, as the old saying goes, power is nothing without control.

It's confusing for casual players when forum experts speak for loosness and relaxed throws like "slow is loose, loose is far" etc. Then, for instance, the guys on CCDG videos are like "Steve Rico is like... man strong, he can really bomb those long hyzers" or "Doss definately has the power to get there".

Speed needs strength. Look at sprinters, they are huge! But when they break personal records there is always one thing in common - they say that running felt loose and effortless. Well, I'm pretty loose and can't bother to make an effort, shouldn't I be quicker than them?

When one has good technique and a lot of power, it may seem to them that they are not utilizing any strength at all when going for distance. But I bet that if biometric data were analyzed it would show that they are indeed using a lot of muscle strength but they are using it in a very controlled way, with peaks being short and fast.

 

[jannne]

It's confusing for casual players when forum experts speak for loosness and relaxed throws like "slow is loose, loose is far" etc. Then, for instance, the guys on CCDG videos are like "Steve Rico is like... man strong, he can really bomb those long hyzers" or "Doss definately has the power to get there".

Oh yeah, to add to that confusion: Will Schusterick saying about feeling and utilizing your right hand muscles https://youtu.be/30cUNsWOYSI?t=1m31s and https://youtu.be/0Vrqk5dUgU8?t=15m05s

He is saying "tense here..." not "loose and relaxed here".

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

You can throw loose or tense, there's pros who fall all over the map on that. But, I would put all my money on better results for the guy who is developing his form - on being loose. Tightening muscles and tendons when you don't have things completely locked down is a recipe for tennis elbow, shoulder strain, etc.

We're not talking about Steve Rico or Will though. We're (at least I'm) specifically talking about the player who is developing proper form. Discovering the hit, what late acceleration feels like, how the system loads and hits that peak... that's where we preach slow and loose.

Personally I throw control shots much tighter and have had much better success with piping shots straight when I sorta lock things down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liuPgsicl9Y (4:45) example if I have to hit a smaller window.

But if I have room to let the disc move a bit, I always try to loosen up and fight any urge to tighten anything other than my grip as I extend forward with the disc.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

^also why sometimes the advice for more D is to just throw harder/faster.

Hurky Jerky aiiiiiint finna help anyone' -- Still the best simple new player advice video out on the internet IMO.

 

[slowplastic]

@ jannne:

So many times in the field if things aren't going well, I'll subconsciously try to throw harder to get my discs out further...and it never works. Usually when I either tell myself to slow down and throw an easy shot just to test it out and not care how far it goes...it goes further. Or else I'll try a shot on the course because field practice isn't going well, and try to hit a window...and suddenly I'm throwing way better.

If you have clean form, you can add in the extra power at the right moments and it will get you further. But adding power in at the wrong time is the worst thing you can do when learning. That leads to strong arming or lots of torquey releases and strained muscles.

Just try swinging a baseball bat as hard as possible and incorrectly. It'll feel like you're pushing it down and forwards with your top hand, or yanking on it with your bottom/knob hand. If you get into the correct body positions and swing properly, the bat will feel way lighter in your hands as you move into the snapping/bat unloading position, and I guarantee it will be moving way faster than the 100% powered swing that has swing planes going everywhere. A disc is so light that it doesn't give you the feedback in the same weighted way...instead it shows you with crappy flights or early releases and griplocks.

 

[ash81]

I have to say that all the advice and help I've dncountered here at DGCR has helped...All Of IT!!! That said, while I was making some gains in controlled distance, the this last bit about staying loose until the end and waiting to grip tight has been the next peice to help push me further out with tighter shots. It's showing on the course too.

I think the issue it...tl;dw...as you watch, the motion looks the same, but feels different. (Had a long bit there but it's a whole other disc game for a different thread).

@ sidewinder22
You posted a Steve Rico commercial concerning what you noticed about his grip once. I caught what you were talking about in the thread, but another thing in the commercial that grabbed my attention was the throw around 0:24 and his shoulders/arms/upper body just looked relaxed like a suspended rag doll of sorts. That alone spoke volumes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHpq2Sfu6yI
Actually, he looks loose through a lot of his throw.

Hurky Jerky aiiiiiint finna help anyone' -- Still the best simple new player advice video out on the internet IMO.

As I was quoting I read slowplastic's comment and it's pretty much in the same tune. When, for whatever reason (fatigue, trying to force more out there when I'n doing well, or mentally off from bad throws) when I tense too much, I lose control and distance. I can feel the loss through the throw. In my head I remember that Schultz says to quit jerkin' it and then I try to relax. Most of the time I recover. Now is advice about no tippytoe Fred Flinstonin'...kinda kept me feet too flat for a short while but I'll forgive him this time. I still need to add that video to my archive. It's the one that gave me my first taste of small improvement that left me hungry for more.

 

[sidewinder22]

A fun test for me is to spin putt with both hands as far as they go. Altough I throw RHBH, I'm a leftie. The muscle balance issue is there but it's safe to assume that the difference is not that big that it has any effect on flinging a 175g piece of plastic. Still the difference is staggering, discs thrown with my left hand have lower speed and do not carry as far. Why, when I have about equal amounts of strength in my arms and fingers? Well, as the old saying goes, power is nothing without control.

Coordination and muscle memory or conditioning are a big deal. Practice, lots and lots of practice would greatly improve your lefty throw because it will condition your muscles to coordinate them more like a quick reflex rather than a very strong continuous motion.

It's confusing for casual players when forum experts speak for loosness and relaxed throws like "slow is loose, loose is far" etc. Then, for instance, the guys on CCDG videos are like "Steve Rico is like... man strong, he can really bomb those long hyzers" or "Doss definately has the power to get there".

Simon and Will throw further than Rico and Doss, but you can easily see they are not stronger, but more efficient. They are built longer, longer levers, longer swing, longer throw.

Speed needs strength. Look at sprinters, they are huge! But when they break personal records there is always one thing in common - they say that running felt loose and effortless. Well, I'm pretty loose and can't bother to make an effort, shouldn't I be quicker than them?

Usain Bolt is the fastest man ever, but he is not built huge, he is longer and more efficient. Strength only helps once you have already maximized your leverage and efficiency.

When one has good technique and a lot of power, it may seem to them that they are not utilizing any strength at all when going for distance. But I bet that if biometric data were analyzed it would show that they are indeed using a lot of muscle strength but they are using it in a very controlled way, with peaks being short and fast.

There is truth to that. I recall a study with swimmers, that measured calories burned per stroke. The recreational swimmers that spun and thrashed their arms as fast as they can, not only swam much slower, but burned less calories than the top level swimmers who moved their arms much slower, but swam much faster because they caught/lever the water with their arm to move faster/more efficiently/longer per stroke through the water. I see a lot of similarity between swimming fast and throwing far.

If you measured the top guys, you would see a smooth exponential rise and peak(rhythm) at the hit. Measure most other players and you would see an early plateau and flat line through the hit. Ultimately the difference is the amount of force delivered to the disc, but most of this force comes through just maintaining leverage rather than raw strength. Most players that struggle for distance spin out of leverage, and/or cast/release early.

 

[sidewinder22]

Oh yeah, to add to that confusion: Will Schusterick saying about feeling and utilizing your right hand muscles https://youtu.be/30cUNsWOYSI?t=1m31s and https://youtu.be/0Vrqk5dUgU8?t=15m05s

He is saying "tense here..." not "loose and relaxed here".

I think part of this was lost in translation. Will is not talking about his "hand" but his right side(tricep and lat) muscles being stretched. You feel your muscles being stretched and then you contract them. You have to be loose enough in the backswing to get them to stretch. I prefer the term of taut rather than loose or tight, it's more like swinging a ball around on a rope, the rope should be taut to spin the ball around fast, not really loose or tight.

Here you can see Josh's hand is loose in the backswing, his thumb and index finger are not even on the disc until the transition forward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayyQItY5KMs#t=1m15s

 

[slowplastic]

SW, how do you feel the front side lat during your throw? That's something I experienced one day months ago, where I felt like a springy coil unwinding during my throw...and I've never been able to recreate it. My shots were all 400-425 and felt automatic and easy.

Is this the feel that should be aimed for...of the front lat tugging the arm? It's hard to describe. And do you have any body positions/drills to help experience this? Or is this not what to go for...