Why the Beato drill is so important.

[sidewinder22]

FWIW I found Brad's Closed Shoulder Drill to supplant the actual Right Pec Drill. There's still a ton of great info the Beto vid and from the closed shoulder drill you work the hit backwards.

 

[luckless_pedestrian]

I was wondering the same thing -- what's the clock referencing? I'm assuming it's the pinch point of your hand on the disc as seen when looking down on it when throwing. So you start at, say, 9:00 where that's pointing directly behind you and 3:00 would be pointing at the target?

Which leads to another question I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to. At the very end do you actively open your wrist or do you just let the combined momentum of everything leading up to that point force the wrist open? I've always thought the latter, but I've never been sure about that.

 

[Dan Ensor]

A line that runs through 6 and 12 is the initial line the disc travels. The hand generally starts at 9, then big throwers usually release with their hand at about 3 (or later). I don't think HUB is referencing the disc clock in the train analogy.


My understanding is that a passive unloading is a half-hit, but to full hit, there's an active opening of the wrist.

 

[sidewinder22]

Which leads to another question I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to. At the very end do you actively open your wrist or do you just let the combined momentum of everything leading up to that point force the wrist open? I've always thought the latter, but I've never been sure about that.

I believe that's the difference between half hit and full hit. Half hit is more passive wrist that gets slammed open. Many top throwers say their wrist only moves a tiny bit during the hit. Tighter spring = more potential.

 

[luckless_pedestrian]

I believe that's the difference between half hit and full hit. Half hit is more passive wrist that gets slammed open. Many top throwers say their wrist only moves a tiny bit during the hit. Tighter spring = more potential.

Interesting. So is this something you can make yourself do or is it just how you throw? If I think about opening my wrist, I also tend to release my grip. So it seems easier to just try to lock it down and let it happen. But I guess the whole gripping while releasing thing is pretty counter intuitive for everyone.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I don't think HUB is referencing the disc clock in the train analogy.

Correct. The time I used had nothing to do with a clock face on the disc.

I'll probably have to explain that because I know we often refer to the 9:00 to 3:00 position when talking about this stuff and I don't want to confuse the two things.

 

[zj1002]

I believe that's the difference between half hit and full hit. Half hit is more passive wrist that gets slammed open. Many top throwers say their wrist only moves a tiny bit during the hit. Tighter spring = more potential.

Yup dead on.

The best way I have found to illustrate this is with some sort of bungee or elastic cord(I use the old Snap-Band device that is attached to a disc). Strap it securely to something at chest height. Perform the throwing motion with a bent wrist and try to actively uncurl your wrist. You will feel how tight the muscles are doing it this way. Then I have them set up with a straight wrist, the arm stays lose and it is much easier to get the disc forward. You will notice that when trying to do this with a bent wrist, as the wrist uncurls your fingers want to let go of the disc before you get to the hit.

The only movement in my wrist at the hit is when I actively adjust the nose angle. The main focus is extending everything forward, not so much spinning/uncurling it.

 

[Krinkncrank]

Yup dead on.

You will notice that when trying to do this with a bent wrist, as the wrist uncurls your fingers want to let go of the disc before you get to the hit.

The only movement in my wrist at the hit is when I actively adjust the nose angle. The main focus is extending everything forward, not so much spinning/uncurling it.

But what about Wysocki? He actively curls his wrist and hucks a good long way.
It seems there is always somebody throwing well with a technique that otherwise seems flawed. Your thoughts?

 

[Kodachrome]

But what about Wysocki? He actively curls his wrist and hucks a good long way.
It seems there is always somebody throwing well with a technique that otherwise seems flawed. Your thoughts?

that doesn't make it good for you.

michael jordan could have rubbed icy hot on his nuts before every game and he still would've wiped the court with everybody's face.

it's sort of like holding your disc during the reach back. some players that throw a long way can probably do that...but can you? wouldn't it be easier to start with a clean slate, devoid of bad habits that inhibit your fundamentals?

*shrug* there's always an outlier.

also i'd like to know if you're talking about wysocki's forehand vs. his backhand, because that's kind of a big difference.



good explanation, OP, but i'm not sure i like how complicated the "release station" jargon is becoming. it's a concept that helps envision where we need to be. it is good and i like it, but there are simpler ways of explaining the rest than trying to make it all fit into this analogy.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

that doesn't make it good for you.

michael jordan could have rubbed icy hot on his nuts before every game and he still would've wiped the court with everybody's face.

it's sort of like holding your disc during the reach back. some players that throw a long way can probably do that...but can you? wouldn't it be easier to start with a clean slate, devoid of bad habits that inhibit your fundamentals?

*shrug* there's always an outlier.

also i'd like to know if you're talking about wysocki's forehand vs. his backhand, because that's kind of a big difference.



good explanation, OP, but i'm not sure i like how complicated the "release station" jargon is becoming. it's a concept that helps envision where we need to be. it is good and i like it, but there are simpler ways of explaining the rest than trying to make it all fit into this analogy.

Having accidentally gotten tiger balm on my balls before, I think it may be the only time I'd have a shot at Jordan.

That explanation of Wysocki is what I've heard from some very wise folks. Why does this top pro do this bad form? Because he's so god damned powerful that he can.

I'm definitely open to a better/simpler analogy that shows how covering that distance in a shorter time means that your hand will accelerate faster.

The LAST thing I want to do is over complicate it.

I like simple stuff that makes sense.

 

[sidewinder22]

But what about Wysocki? He actively curls his wrist and hucks a good long way.
It seems there is always somebody throwing well with a technique that otherwise seems flawed. Your thoughts?

There's a big difference between curling and cocking. Most the footage and in person I've seen from Ricky in the past is a fairly straight to slightly cocked wrist. I have seen more recent footage where he seems to cock it back, which maybe more for aiming rather than raw power.

 

[zj1002]

The hold Ricky uses looks like his hand is more on top of the disc. This help gives a lot of control on nose angle. I used to throw like that. His wrist is more cocking down rather than curling in. But I'm going off memory of his form and basing it on why I did it.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

One thing you're touching on that is important for people to grasp is that you shouldn't be trying to throw the disc hard. You're mind shouldn't be focusing on pulling fast and ripping one because if that's your mindset you're going to lose focus on the small moment of acceleration that actually matters.

 

[Krinkncrank]

I was watching Wysocki fairly closely at the Maple hill open last month, where I was there in person, and noticed he reaches back (not out) and high, with his wrist pre-curling the disc.

Also relevant is to this is the discussion of not worrying too much about the reach back at all - however, Shusterick makes a point in one of his videos to emphasize the importance of reaching back far.

This isn't about this:

that doesn't make it good for you.

michael jordan could have rubbed icy hot on his nuts before every game and he still would've wiped the court with everybody's face.

it's sort of like holding your disc during the reach back. some players that throw a long way can probably do that...but can you? wouldn't it be easier to start with a clean slate, devoid of bad habits that inhibit your fundamentals?

I'm very much concerned with not spending too much time learning bad fundamentals and have rebuilt my backhand throw several times already after realizing I was strong-arming too much. The thing is, when you start digging into the matter in more detail, you will find fairly contradictory approaches extolled by different people, and even greater differences in how people actually throw.

I was surprised at Maple Hill to see some of the pros throw pretty damn far with what to me seemed to my eye to be poor (or at least not especially clean) technique.

Obviously, individual adjustments to their own physical particulars will account for some things. But when you see Feldberg throwing a backhand with a straight arm, or McBeth barely even looking back, or Wysocki curling his wrist, or Shusterick reaching way back, and seeing they all do pretty well, then it does bring a certain confusion to the topic of 'how is the backhand done the best way?'

To HUB, I think the slo-mo video is very helpful. In that clip I noticed you were more or less throwing from your left pec, not the right one. What do you think it takes to more reliably get the disc loading into the near-pec (i.e., right pec for RHBH) position?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Yep, I'm getting left pec to center chest depending on the throw. I am just trying to get there by going slow and on 100-150' shots I can get to the right pec. It is not a comfortable or natural position, so I default back to left/center.

I think that having thrown with a more tight wrist for so long makes it harder to allow the disc into the right pec. I feel the position of the wrist and it tells me to start opening up the hinge.

I'm trying to slow down and be patient with this process. We're trying to develop the technique of the best players in the world... it's not going to happen over night.

 

[sidewinder22]

I was watching Wysocki fairly closely at the Maple hill open last month, where I was there in person, and noticed he reaches back (not out) and high, with his wrist pre-curling the disc.

Also relevant is to this is the discussion of not worrying too much about the reach back at all - however, Shusterick makes a point in one of his videos to emphasize the importance of reaching back far.

This isn't about this:

I'm very much concerned with not spending too much time learning bad fundamentals and have rebuilt my backhand throw several times already after realizing I was strong-arming too much. The thing is, when you start digging into the matter in more detail, you will find fairly contradictory approaches extolled by different people, and even greater differences in how people actually throw.

I was surprised at Maple Hill to see some of the pros throw pretty damn far with what to me seemed to my eye to be poor (or at least not especially clean) technique.

Obviously, individual adjustments to their own physical particulars will account for some things. But when you see Feldberg throwing a backhand with a straight arm, or McBeth barely even looking back, or Wysocki curling his wrist, or Shusterick reaching way back, and seeing they all do pretty well, then it does bring a certain confusion to the topic of 'how is the backhand done the best way?'

You need to find the similarities between the styles....the sequence and timing. Compare any non-top thrower to this and you will see the disc is way off during the backswing, transition, and forward swing as well as the followthrough.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I honestly don't know if the right pec is the spot in reality, that very many people are actually starting their arc from in a real world drive.



Dan's appearing to pull from the middle of the chest. He created the right pec drill.

SW22 appears to have hand on outside to middle of chest, but is starting some hand rotation by right pec.

JohnE quite regularly is pulling from the left pec, or under his left pec - he seems to pull very low.



Paul hits about center before there's some hand movement forward.

...

I think that the right pec might be a bit of a myth... and here's my guess as to why.

Hold your throwing wrist with your opposite hand. For me, I'm holding my right wrist.

Pull forward as if you were driving, with the hand out in front as if you had space for a disc from the center of your chest, resisting with your opposite hand.

Now move that hand forward into the front of the right pec (leave space for the disc), and resist with the opposite hand.

For me, I feel way more strong - pulling from the center. Moving it more right, it feels weaker.

If I had to wager a guess, sliding the disc into the right pec position could give the added benefit of having less extension of your shoulder - because you're extending it until there's no give in it.

But I really think that most people - including people who crush - are pulling to the center of the chest.

 

[rhatton1]

Firstly sorry to be that guy but credit where credits due and all that, and for me Blake deserves one hell of a lot of credit! - Dan Beto learnt the right pec drill from Blake Takkunen (and in the video he actually does the incorporating footwork a bit wrong/differently from Blakes method, I always found it backwards as it doesn't lead to an Xstep on the Beto method - Blakes does) - I think this was Blakes' drill originally but may have been formulated with Dave Dunipace and others - I know I have seen another hit backwards video from years ago somewhere,
Secondly one of my bugbears, the good old but, but, but.... "But this Pro does it like this , and this one like this" "Why should we listen to you - you aren't a pro" etc etc Virtually every one of these pros has started young, at the very latest in their teens, starting young you're not so constrained by your bodies own knowledge of different sports motions, this is especially important in such a strange action as the backhand drive. They've almost certainly started with no coaching, have become addicted to throwing far and found their own ways of doing this. They are in the main natural athletes (even the older guys that have started to let it slip a bit ) As Sidewinder points out though EVERY SINGLE ONE of them has the same similarities at certain points in the drive. These similarities and how to achieve these is what needs to be focused on rather than the differences. The people on these forums giving advice tend to be the guys it didn't come naturally too and have had to work at it - once they have it they are the ones to listen to, as they have worked out how - it hasn't come naturally. I've had the good fortune to have been playing for 7 years since I started with an international Hall of famer, great player, great guy, good friend - worst teacher/coach imaginable (I tell him this often :0 ) . I have never learnt anything from him, he has no clue what he does, he was just naturally good. I have learnt more over the years from those that struggled to break the 300' plateau and worked and worked until they found ways to do this. These will be the Butch Harmons of the disc golf world, and I would always prefer to learn from Butch than from Tiger.

Things like the right pec drill, the Brad Walker drill and for those really trying to get better the Blake T sekret techniques, attempt to give you an easy way to work out these similarities and where the most common one is found (in the out motion and especially the motion around the "Hit") The problem with this is it is where the speed is happening - it's too fast to see it with the naked eye, and on slow mo doesn't do the action justice - if even slow mo captures it properly. This makes it incredibly difficult to see what is going on - this Blake said time and again before getting bored of repeating it - you can't see this stuff, you have to feel it - the drills above will allow you to feel it, if you work on them and if you let them. For me Brad Walkers drill coupled with the Blake T hammer pound had a larger affect than the right pec drill ever did - but now going back to the right pec with the motion learnt from the other two suddenly things become clear. Unfortunately everyone learns differently and so there is no clear path, but there are tools there to work with.

As it is really hard to see this bit of the motion this then leads to people trying to copy the motions they can more easily see, the - the inward pull - This is where the largest amount of differences occur depending on body types etc (there are still fundamentals in here for every top thrower but they are sometimes achieved in slightly different ways) and then you get this question - "but what about x, y, and z they do this". Yes they do at this stage but at the Hit they are definitely doing the same thing.

The people on this forum are attempting to give easy ways to set the body up to go into the hit, they are trying to get rid of the actions that are holding you back from having a chance of "hitting" it - and that is the key - so much of teaching the inward pull is simplification, getting rid of the noise, the confusion, the unnecessary motions, trying to give you keys to focus on that will allow other motions to happen. It is better to concentrate on one motion and get it right than 10 and fail at all. Sidewinders door frame drill series is a great drill to set this inward motion, probably the best i have seen to date - yes it doesn't follow the same style as Schusterick but look at their body types, Schusterick is a rubber band with crazily long levers, Sidewinder is a solid guy, with a much more powerful frame. Try to use the ideas rather than copy exactly the body positions, they might not be optimal for you.

Yes some top pros round a bit - that doesn't make it a good thing. Unlike golf where the swing has been so broken down that all pros are near carbon copies these days we are not at that stage of the sport so our top pros still have flaws in their own forms, they aren't being drilled all week between competitions with high tech video breakdowns - they are just practising throwing far on the field - this makes for good form but not perfect form - this is where the advice, just go and watch loads of videos of pros, rankles with me a bit - those people eager to learn will often note all the differences rather than see through them and find the common ground. The eager internet learners tend to be overthinkers. Over thinking during the drive is fatal, for some watching pros throw will work - for the majority it only works once you know what you are looking for and for many it will leave them more confused and annoyed than ever before as it all looks so easy for the pros when they are having to throw with all their might to get to 250' These guys needs to make fundamental changes to form, watching the pros throwing probably won't get them to do this.

Yes some players pull from the right, middle, left pec, you're just going to have to find for yourself which is best - it takes field work and experimentation to find your optimum. Different body shapes again do different things, wherever you are pulling from it should be allowing you to reach maximum acceleration at and through the hit. The right pec drill is just a drill, not a finished throwing motion. it is designed to generate late acceleration. There is a lot of crossover between the right pec drill and the hit backwards technique - but at the end they are two different things. Bradley Walker picks up on this in his closed shoulder snap drill saying he often sees people having done the drill go from here, to here to here and not to link it all together. Working from the hit back should tell you your optimum place to start pulling from. Right pec drill should give you the means to late acceleration. If you start the pull earlier you are more likely to pick up strongarming habits and shoulder spinning habits. That is why you go from the right pec in the drill, or even further forward of this.

Not quite sure where all that came from, sorry for the ridiculously long post, no points are aimed at anyone in particular, my main point really is that the outward pull is where the magic happens, it becomes very easy to get caught up in the mechanics of the inward pull, where as long as they are not seriously F'd up you should be able to get the outward pull hitting. It was written quickly at work, so apologies for typos or any glaring mistakes please do point them out!!

 

[Krinkncrank]

rhatton1,

many thanks for taking the time to post a detailed reply!

I think that being a person who has a certain degree of success in various endeavors by detailed analysis, I have come to work on improving the backhand throw with a similar approach.

And it has worked fairly well. Though I threw frisbee for fun for many many years i only just got into disc golf last year, and my previously established throwing technique with the larger platter of course had to be revamped quite a lot. At the end of last summer my best throw was 309'. A visit to Maple hill, where I saw how far the pros were actually throwing, helped me realize that my backhand was in need of complete revamping. So began the study and training.

Over the winter I putted indoors and did core training, resistance band training, and so forth.

This year I've definitely realized improvements, pushing my backhand out to 425' now. But I know it is a long way from a technically sound motion, and that there is still untapped potential. And i want to tap it.

The motion is really complex though, and just when you think you have one small aspect worked out, you find you've started falling back into old habits with other aspects. It's like juggling a bunch of balls and always dropping one or two.

I greatly appreciate the help people provide on these forums, and it has helped me a lot, however there are differences of opinion and sometimes I find the information a bit confusing. I'm all about going out in the field and drilling technique, but i want to waste no time on the wrong technique. I just want to get the right technique figured out then work on that until i have it down - until I can stand on the tee pad and not have 62 thoughts about what to do with my grip, my elbow, my footwork, my hips, etc., and just work on the shot selection, aim, and execution. It seems like a distant dream at this point!

 

[Aim For The Chains]

rhatton1-- For real!!!

I watched the Masterbeto drill longggg ago but nothing made more sense than the articles Blake put together and helped improve my actual shots-- Its less about one X way to do it but more about the correct principles behind a sound throw which there is no ONE way.

Great post'