Your most recent provisional?

[sidewinder22]

Clarified scenario:
1. Player tees into thick rough, not OB.
2. Player throws again further into rough, not OB.
3. Player elects to take Optional Re-throw from previous the lie in 1st rough. Does not throw.
4. Player elects to take Optional Re-throw from previous the lie at tee.
5. Player throws from tee.
6. Player makes putt.

 

[teemkey]

1. Throws OB off tee. *Where there is a mandatory drop zone*
2. Throws from last IB.
3. Throws again without holing out. *Realizes there is a mandatory drop zone*
4. Now throws from mandatory drop zone.
5. Throw approach.
6. Putts out and correctly played the hole.

Was the mando drop zone clearly noted in the caddie book (if any) and/or announced at the player's meeting?

That is, should the player (and card mates) be aware that a mando drop zone existed on the hole?

I would think so since the player realizes there is a mandatory drop zone.

But hey, this is such a fun loving crowd here in the rules questions and discussion forum, so go ahead play out both possible scenarios....

Case 1: The TD clearly noted the mandatory drop zone, but no members of the card paid attention. Score = 9 (plus courtesy violations for each member of the card)

Case 2: The TD clearly noted the mandatory drop zone and members of the card advised the player, but the player went through steps 2 & 3 before accepting that he must use the DZ. Score = 9 + 1 (two courtesy violations) or 888 depending of player's attitude

Case 3: The TD clearly noted the mandatory drop zone & players know it, but the DZ could not be found by the card until after step 3. Score = 7

Case 4: The TD failed to mention the mando DZ, but upon finding the DZ after step 3 it is clearly labeled for the tournament. Score = 5

 

[JoakimBL]

1. Throws OB off tee. *Where there is a mandatory drop zone*
2. Throws from last IB.
3. Throws again without holing out. *Realizes there is a mandatory drop zone*
4. Now throws from mandatory drop zone.
5. Throw approach.
6. Putts out and correctly played the hole.
[...]

Case 4: The TD failed to mention the mando DZ, but upon finding the DZ after step 3 it is clearly labeled for the tournament. Score = 5

How can it EVER be a 5 when he throws 6 throws + 1 OB penalty, when no provisionals are announced?

It's clearly a 9. No matter whether or not the player knew there was a mandatory dropzone, he misplayed the Hole, by not continuing and holing out the original sequence. What he could potentially have done was to also play out of the dropzone provisionally. He has made 6 throws, all of them count. There is an OB penalty of 1throw and a misplay penalty of 2 throws.
Potentially a DQ, if for some reason the player tried to circumvent the rules by going to the dropzone because his first sequence of throws where really bad.

 

[JoakimBL]

Sidewinder, Optional re-throw is for THE previous lie, not A previous lie. There is only ever one previous lie. And the dropzone is never that lie, if the player has not previously thrown from it. You cannot throw from one m. inbounds after OB, and then decide that you would have rather reteed, and go back to there for your optional re-throw. You can only use optionale re-throw to redo your last throw. Would you also argue that "at any time" also means that I could potentially on hole 18 go back and start all over on hole 1? Or maybe go from round 3 to round one? If that is your argument, you should at least agree that is a one throw penalty for each throw you want to go back

 

[JC17393]

Anybody else want to count a score on this scenario?

This could actually happen:
1. Throws OB off tee. *Where there is a mandatory drop zone*
2. Throws from last IB.
3. Throws again without holing out. *Realizes there is a mandatory drop zone*
4. Now throws from mandatory drop zone.
5. Throw approach.
6. Putts out and correctly played the hole.


SW22 counts 7.
JC counts 9.
krupicka counts 11.

It's 6 throws, one of which was OB. That's 7. Then there were two misplays on the hole: throws 2 and 4, both of which were followed by subsequent throws, meaning a two-throw penalty applies. The penalty is applied once for the entire hole, not once for each misplay. That's two more for 9 total.

No practice throws whatsoever.

 

[JC17393]

Clarified scenario:
1. Player tees into thick rough, not OB.
2. Player throws again further into rough, not OB.
3. Player elects to take Optional Re-throw from previous the lie in 1st rough. Does not throw.
4. Player elects to take Optional Re-throw from previous the lie at tee.
5. Player throws from tee.
6. Player makes putt.

5 throws plus 2-throw misplay for throwing from the tee when it was not the lie for a total of 7.

The time for the player to re-tee with the optional re-throw would be after throw 1. Once throw 2 is made, the tee is no longer the previous lie. Optional re-throw does not give you the option of playing from any previous lie, only the immediate previous lie. That's why the rule says "the previous lie" not "any previous lie".

 

[sidewinder22]

Sidewinder, Optional re-throw is for THE previous lie, not A previous lie. There is only ever one previous lie. And the dropzone is never that lie, if the player has not previously thrown from it. You cannot throw from one m. inbounds after OB, and then decide that you would have rather reteed, and go back to there for your optional re-throw. You can only use optionale re-throw to redo your last throw. Would you also argue that "at any time" also means that I could potentially on hole 18 go back and start all over on hole 1? Or maybe go from round 3 to round one? If that is your argument, you should at least agree that is a one throw penalty for each throw you want to go back

Once you putted out on a hole, you can not go back unless you called a provisional before holing out at whatever lie there was a question.

If you are still on a hole and have not putted out, that is a current scenario. It doesn't state in the rules that you can not take back to back Optional Re-throws as in this scenario I gave and go back to the tee which is now at the time "the previous lie" from the first Optional Re-throw:

Clarified scenario:
1. Player tees into thick rough, not OB.
2. Player throws again further into rough, not OB.
3. Player elects to take Optional Re-throw from previous the lie in 1st rough. Does not throw.
4. Player elects to take Optional Re-throw from previous the lie at tee.
5. Player throws from tee.
6. Player makes putt.

 

[JC17393]

Once you putted out on a hole, you can not go back unless you called a provisional before holing out at whatever lie there was a question.

If you are still on a hole and have not putted out, that is a current scenario. It doesn't state in the rules that you can not take back to back Optional Re-throws as in this scenario I gave and go back to the tee which is now at the time "the previous lie" from the first Optional Re-throw:

Clarified scenario:
1. Player tees into thick rough, not OB.
2. Player throws again further into rough, not OB.
3. Player elects to take Optional Re-throw from previous the lie in 1st rough. Does not throw.
4. Player elects to take Optional Re-throw from previous the lie at tee.
5. Player throws from tee.
6. Player makes putt.

You're abusing and misusing the optional re-throw rule here. The previous lie is the previous lie. There can only be one at any given time. Going back to the previous lie does not create a new previous lie allowing the player to go further back in his throwing sequence.

To me, the score recorded in your scenario is at least a 7 (4 throws + optional re-throw penalty + 2 throw misplay penalty for incorrect lie).

 

[tbonesocrul]

It doesn't state in the rules that you can not take back to back Optional Re-throws as in this scenario I gave and go back to the tee which is now at the time "the previous lie" from the first Optional Re-throw:

When you take an optional re-throw from your previous lie do the rules also state that it becomes your current lie?

 

[sidewinder22]

It's 6 throws, one of which was OB. That's 7. Then there were two misplays on the hole: throws 2 and 4, both of which were followed by subsequent throws, meaning a two-throw penalty applies. The penalty is applied once for the entire hole, not once for each misplay. That's two more for 9 total.

No practice throws whatsoever.

H. A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule shall be marked and/or penalized in accordance with the rule that results in the most penalty throws, or, among rules that call for an equal penalty, the rule that was first violated.

You can not apply two penalties for this misplay action.

 

[sidewinder22]

You're abusing and misusing the optional re-throw rule here. The previous lie is the previous lie. There can only be one at any given time. Going back to the previous lie does not create a new previous lie allowing the player to go further back in his throwing sequence.

To me, the score recorded in your scenario is at least a 7 (4 throws + optional re-throw penalty + 2 throw misplay penalty for incorrect lie).

At the given time you have taken the first optional re-throw your current lie is where you would be re-throwing. If you do not re-throw, then your current previous lie at the given time is the one before, in this case the tee.

B. Optional Re-throw. A player may elect at any time to re-throw from the previous lie. The original throw plus one penalty throw shall be counted in the player's score.

 

[JC17393]

You can not apply two penalties for this misplay action.

I didn't. One 2-throw penalty. Pretty sure I made myself clear on that.

 

[JC17393]

At the given time you have taken the first optional re-throw your current lie is where you would be re-throwing. If you do not re-throw, then your current previous lie at the given time is the one before, in this case the tee.

Nope. Nope. Nope. You don't get to compound optional re-throw like that. If you do not re-throw from the previous lie, it remains the previous lie.

 

[sidewinder22]

I didn't. One 2-throw penalty. Pretty sure I made myself clear on that.

Ok, I agree with you on this now, it should be 9.

 

[sidewinder22]

Nope. Nope. Nope. You don't get to compound optional re-throw like that. If you do not re-throw from the previous lie, it remains the previous lie.

I completely disagree with you here.

 

[JC17393]

I completely disagree with you here.

You're free to disagree. You're wrong, and if you tried this in an actual tournament, you'd be wrong and penalized accordingly. But you're free to disagree.

 

[sidewinder22]

You're free to disagree. You're wrong, and if you tried this in an actual tournament, you'd be wrong and penalized accordingly. But you're free to disagree.

You are disallowing a player to take the optional re-throw at any time. Where does it state you can't take back to back optional re-throw?

 

[JC17393]

You are disallowing a player to take the optional re-throw at any time. Where does it state you can't take back to back optional re-throw?

I'm not disallowing the player from taking an optional re-throw. I'm disallowing a player from doing so from an incorrect lie.

Where it "states" that you can't take back to back optional re-throws, at least in the way you're describing, is the fact that optional re-throws must be thrown from THE previous lie, not a previous lie or any previous lie, THE previous lie. There is only one "the previous lie" at any given time. In your scenario, once the second throw on the hole is made (the one from the rough), the tee is no longer the previous lie and can no longer be the previous lie at any point on that hole.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm not disallowing the player from taking an optional re-throw. I'm disallowing a player from doing so from an incorrect lie.

Where it "states" that you can't take back to back optional re-throws, at least in the way you're describing, is the fact that optional re-throws must be thrown from THE previous lie, not a previous lie or any previous lie, THE previous lie. There is only one "the previous lie" at any given time. In your scenario, once the second throw on the hole is made (the one from the rough), the tee is no longer the previous lie and can no longer be the previous lie at any point on that hole.

But a re-throw can be taken from any lie that was played previously.

An additional throw from the same lie which is played instead of the previous throw from that lie.

 

[JC17393]

But a re-throw can be taken from any lie that was played previously.

No it can't.

Nowhere does the phrase "any lie" appear in the rule book. All references to re-throws are from the previous lie, indicating there is only one lie that qualifies for that description at any given time.