Acceptable Percentage of Entry Fees for Payout?

[throwfromthewoods]

I'm trying to figure my payout table for a NON-sactioned tournament in the Spring, and I wanted to make sure I'm not shorting the payout.

I have three divisions, two of them are paying out 75% of their entry fees, and one is paying out 62.5% of their entry fees. All three divisions are paying 50% deep player-wise.

Is that an acceptable use of their entry fees? I don't want to cheap out on the players on pure payout, but I do want some funds remaining for other things like CTPs, etc.

 

[wake911]

we always do CTP's and ace fund as extra buyins on top of entry fee, not pulled from entry fees. Sometimes a sponsor will add $100 or something to Ace fund, but otherwise, it's just what is put in the fund by the players. (normally $3 ace / $2 CTP)

I would say pay as much as possible, keeping extra, not official payout stuff to a minimum.

 

[throwfromthewoods]

we always do CTP's and ace fund as extra buyins on top of entry fee, not pulled from entry fees. Sometimes a sponsor will add $100 or something to Ace fund, but otherwise, it's just what is put in the fund by the players. (normally $3 ace / $2 CTP)

I would say pay as much as possible, keeping extra, not official payout stuff to a minimum.

Ace Pools are always buy-ins, but we usually do CTPs out of the entry fees because it lets people feel like even if they suck out that day they have a chance at not wasting an entire entry fee.

 

[DavidSauls]

Are you paying everyone in cash?

If so and if you're non-sanctioned, I'd just take out expenses and cost of CTPs, etc., and pay out everything else. Just so long as you don't come out of pocket.

 

[throwfromthewoods]

Are you paying everyone in cash?

If so and if you're non-sanctioned, I'd just take out expenses and cost of CTPs, etc., and pay out everything else. Just so long as you don't come out of pocket.

Everyone is cash. A chunk of fees are going towards players packs for everyone (shirts, badass ones ). Any hole sponsorships or business sponsorships are going straight to payout (50% to Pro, 30% to Am, 20% to Rec).

I guess I'll just stick with my current payout scale and tack anything left over onto tthe payouts that day.

 

[Sadjo]

If you run a lot of events, its good to start a CTP stash. When I order players packs, I always gets few extra and set aside. Over time you'll get quite a nice selection of CTP stuff in waiting. That way you don't have to worry about the overall cost of CTPs.

I started setting aside discs and other things just for CTPs in 2008. My CTP stash is anywhere from 80-100 discs strong along with shirts, minis, hats and other things.

Work with company's like Gateway. They're really good and giving some extra. Innova does too but if you buy CFR plastic, you don't get the extra stuff.

 

[Bamm]

Along with ctp's and an ace pool, a putting contest is really cool as well and let's even the most novice have a shot. They are especially cool if you are playing at a course that has very few "aceable" runs.

 

[JC17393]

Everyone is cash. A chunk of fees are going towards players packs for everyone (shirts, badass ones ). Any hole sponsorships or business sponsorships are going straight to payout (50% to Pro, 30% to Am, 20% to Rec).

I guess I'll just stick with my current payout scale and tack anything left over onto tthe payouts that day.

75% of entries in two of your divisions and 62.5% of entries in the other are earmarked for performance payouts, meaning that the 25%/25%/37.5% is where you're pulling funding for the player pack?

For all intents and purposes, a player pack IS payout, just not payout based on performance in the tournament. So in reality, you're paying more than 75% of the entry back. If the cost of your shirts is the entire 25%/37.5% amount you're pulling from entries, you are returning 100% of the entry fees back to the players. Sounds perfectly acceptable to me.

 

[dusty5150]

For all intents and purposes, ...

thank you! you are the first person I've ever seen online that didn't say "for all intensive purposes".

one of my pet peaves ... cheers!

 

[iacas]

I don't understand this type of stuff. Or better worded, I don't understand why people are so worried about how much is paid out.

I'm looking to form a club here in Erie, PA and I'd envision hosting tournaments where the average entry fee is about $15 ($20 to non-members, $10 to members) and we might get 30 people. That's $450.

$100 for first place.
$75 for second.
$50 for third.
$25 for fourth.

Players can add cash for an ace pot or a CTP.

The $200 left over goes to the club to help pay for tee pads, signs, etc.

Why should anything close to 100% of the money be paid back out? That's not a tournament - that's just people throwing money in a pot and divvying it up amongst themselves.

It was said in another thread (or maybe this one) that people seem to place $0 of value on playing in "a tournament" in and of itself.

 

[Discette]

I don't understand this type of stuff. Or better worded, I don't understand why people are so worried about how much is paid out.....

Why should anything close to 100% of the money be paid back out? That's not a tournament - that's just people throwing money in a pot and divvying it up amongst themselves.

It was said in another thread (or maybe this one) that people seem to place $0 of value on playing in "a tournament" in and of itself.

And the newcomer that has been involved with disc golf for only a few months sees that the king is not wearing any clothes and asks the big question.


Most disc golf events really are just organized gambling disguised as a competition and no one wants to acknowledge the king's dong is hanging out. Unfortunately, this is how tournaments originated and today's players seem unwilling to give up the gambling (chance at a cut of the entire entry pot) for true competition.

Tournaments for amateurs should be a celebration of who shot the lowest score, not how much return a player can get for the entry fees.

 

[Three Putt]

And the newcomer that has been involved with disc golf for only a few months sees that the king is not wearing any clothes and asks the big question.


Most disc golf events really are just organized gambling disguised as a competition and no one wants to acknowledge the king's dong is hanging out. Unfortunately, this is how tournaments originated and today's players seem unwilling to give up the gambling (chance at a cut of the entire entry pot) for true competition.

Tournaments for amateurs should be a celebration of who shot the lowest score, not how much return a player can get for the entry fees.

This is the biggest problem we have, and it starts with the PDGA. They needed to stand up years ago and put their foot down on the AM payout scale. The AM payout scale is just the pro payout scale in merch, and that's stupid. Unfortunately, it seemed to be working and the PDGA was either unwilling or scared to face a reduction in fees by turning off the merch windfall. So it is what it is. Every year it gets more and more ingrained in people's heads that they should essentially get paid to show up and play competitive disc golf. Someday somebody is going to have to get up the guts to stand up and say "enough is enough."

 

[grodney]

Discette and ThreePutt are, of course, correct. Many of us said it for years and years. But there was no fighting the establishment.

Here was PDGA "Admin" (a more powerful Admin you will never see) Hoeniger in 2004 on pdga.com:
"
The current Am merch heavy system has been a huge factor in the growth of the sport as a whole and PDGA membership numbers through the 1990s and into the 21st C.

However as Am entry fees and payouts have continued to increase it has resulted in fewer players turning pro, as many Ams with games that 10 years ago wouldve seen them playing Pro, have grown to love the stacks of merch they receive.

One thing we will looking at as we plan the 05 Tour during the fall summit (end September in Augusta) is reductions in entry fees first and foremost for Ams, but also for Pros at events below the NT or A tier level.
"

I always found that first paragraph to be disturbing. He's claiming the system was a huge factor in the growth of the sport AS A WHOLE (thus including everything outside the pdga and tournaments!!). I felt the system HURT the growth more than anything. At least the long-term growth. I never even realized there might be some logic in those next couple paragraphs until I re-read it today.

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=17493&page=8

 

[MacDaddy]

We typically pay out 100% of fees in merch for Ams. You can easily make money that way, as you buy the merch wholesale and are paying it out at retail. That said, I am all in favor of keeping Am entry fees low and flat; i.e. $20 or less and the same for all divisions. Sponsorhsip is the way to go for CTP's and let the players fund the ace pot. opcorn:

 

[DavidSauls]

Now, I'm one who has often posted that Ams should pay smaller fees for tournaments, but not receive anything back other than trophies for 1st.

But the PDGA-bashing is a little excessive. A few years ago they tried to put caps on Am entry fees, but that only lasted a few months as TDs didn't stick to the caps. The PDGA is a member-run organization, and it's not outlandish that it sometimes does what members want.

As a TD you can run a high-entry, high-payout event. Or a low-entry, low-payout event (100%, just 100% of a smaller pool of money). Or a low-entry, trophy-only event. Many of us have found that the higher-stakes events draw a lot more Ams. Not always, but usually. So TDs tend to do what the players like, and the PDGA tends to do what the TDs and players like.

In the meantime, the wholesale/retail margin financially supports the tournament structure, and at higher fees and payouts, supports it better.

I wish we'd evolved a different structure, where people paid $20-$25 with no expectation of a return. But players are acclimated to the current system, and it's not that easy to wean them. The PDGA's police powers are weak; if they compel a system players don't want, players or TDs can go non-sanctioned.

 

[Todd Wiley]

I am planning on hosting my first sanctioned C-Tier event in 2013.

Since over 99% of the disc golfers in my area are not PDGA members, I plan on having low cost entry to adjust for the additional $10 non-member fees.

Projected Base Entry Costs per Division
Amateur~
Am4, Fa2, Fa3, All Juniors - $10
Am3, Fa1, All Masters - $15
Am2, - $20
Am1 - $30
Pro~
All Masters - $20
FPO - $30
MPO - $40

 

[Three Putt]

Now, I'm one who has often posted that Ams should pay smaller fees for tournaments, but not receive anything back other than trophies for 1st.

But the PDGA-bashing is a little excessive. A few years ago they tried to put caps on Am entry fees, but that only lasted a few months as TDs didn't stick to the caps. The PDGA is a member-run organization, and it's not outlandish that it sometimes does what members want.

As a TD you can run a high-entry, high-payout event. Or a low-entry, low-payout event (100%, just 100% of a smaller pool of money). Or a low-entry, trophy-only event. Many of us have found that the higher-stakes events draw a lot more Ams. Not always, but usually. So TDs tend to do what the players like, and the PDGA tends to do what the TDs and players like.

In the meantime, the wholesale/retail margin financially supports the tournament structure, and at higher fees and payouts, supports it better.

I wish we'd evolved a different structure, where people paid $20-$25 with no expectation of a return. But players are acclimated to the current system, and it's not that easy to wean them. The PDGA's police powers are weak; if they compel a system players don't want, players or TDs can go non-sanctioned.

The "pay the AMs to play" system came from the PDGA. They got us in this mess. The least they could do is take some leadership in trying to get us out.

 

[Cgkdisc]

No. The PDGA embraced the practice of awarding "cabbage" started by Duane Utech in the Detroit area in the early 90s for the Can-Am series. Surprise, surprise, players liked it and the practice expanded before the PDGA ever developed event guidelines, TD reports, payout tables, etc. Those all came from current practices seen as successful at the time.

 

[DavidSauls]

The "pay the AMs to play" system came from the PDGA. They got us in this mess. The least they could do is take some leadership in trying to get us out.

Could be true that they started it---I don't go back quite that far. But it's not that easy to get us out. Imagine the anti-PDGA howls about their arrogance, trying to force an unwanted change of that magnitude.

I've seen a few tournaments buck the trend and be successful....but after a few years, they give in and join the crowd. Not due to PDGA pressure, but player pressure. I don't know about other TDs but when I run a tournament, I want people to come; if payouts are the accepted norm, I'll pay out Ams too.

 

[Halcón]

This has been a eye opening thread. Iacas asked the same question I've had for a while now. I just had no idea how hard it would be to change the current system.