"Disc Golf Not as Green as it seems"

[Dr.Disc]

Sumone in cali quick bounce a disc off this guys head

 

[JTacoma03]

I'll post a better follow up tomorrow - I'm at a tournament and typing on an ipad is brutally annoying - but suffice to say I appreciate Ken coming on here and attempting to be logical, but he's dodging his own arguments and filibustering via emotion.

In a nutshell - the SFDGC was going to take care of McLaren just as we have done with GGP - and the course was only going to take a fraction of the park.

It's also hilarious that he acts like these parks are nature preserves yet admonishes us for wasting constantly used space in a densely populated area. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. These parks are urban, the idea of an idyllic little Yosemite in the middle of a city is nice - if only it were remotely true. His daughters are more likely to stumble across a used needle than a truly wild animal while "hiking" in the city.

Finally, he uses the argument that residents supposedly want many things installed before a disc golf course, and therefore he's in favor of respecting residents wishes, but isnt that contradictory to the "nature preserve" stance? IMO it's a weak attempt to throw up every opposing angle to disc golf specifically. It's not really about preserving parks, it's about blocking course installation.

 

[New013]

For once I agree with Tacoma, this guy talks like a politician. He never addresses anything completely he skates around it and goes back to his talking points.

I want to know how many fields and courts he opposed?

 

[JTacoma03]

For once I agree with Tacoma

:hfive:

 

[DeadEye]

Can disc golfers do a better job of being better stewards of their courses? Absolutely, people in general are ignorant, lazy, selfish, and responsibility shirking a-holes that litter and take public spaces for granted. But we shouldn't place the blame on disc golf, we should blame ourselves whenever a wild space is corrupted regardless of if it's due to a DG course, a dog-walking trail, baseball field, or a new Wal-Mart.

While I don't disagree that Disc golfer are lazy litterers who take parks for granted... Just based on my own experiences, I think a lot of the litter and destruction of Disc Golf courses is from non-disc golfers. Most disc golf courses are in public parks, and most people that visit public parks litter, not all of them are disc golfers.

 

[WillGrrr]

We must appreciate Mr. McGary posting his opinion in a thread, and on a forum that is demonstrably hostile to him and his position.

I am not a hunter, but I long ago recognized those who hunt as some of the most conservation-minded folk. Ken should understand that the disc golfers who undertake, almost entirely by volunteer effort, to design and install DG courses are the most invested in keeping the grounds healthy and enjoyable for the greatest number of people far into the future. The alleged willingness to trash a 'natural' area to install 18 baskets is beyond absurd.

I read Ken's writing as being anti-disc golf, essentially. It's a pity. He is not recognizing who his potential allies down the road are.

 

[DannyThunders]

Huntington central park , the second course in the world has two hawks living on course, it also has a very high rate of traffic... Just saying that after 30+ years of constant "abuse" the wildlife is still there.

 

[jcrab66]

Maybe you should have double checked your spreadsheet before posting because there is a disc golf course on public land in Atlanta.

A very good course I might add, it is also enjoyed by many other citizens participating in a variety of other outdoor activities....

 

[BrotherDave]

While I don't disagree that Disc golfer are lazy litterers who take parks for granted... Just based on my own experiences, I think a lot of the litter and destruction of Disc Golf courses is from non-disc golfers. Most disc golf courses are in public parks, and most people that visit public parks litter, not all of them are disc golfers.

I agree, I didn't say that disc golfers were litterbugs but people generally are.

 

[harr0140]

We must appreciate Mr. McGary posting his opinion in a thread, and on a forum that is demonstrably hostile to him and his position.

I am not a hunter, but I long ago recognized those who hunt as some of the most conservation-minded folk. Ken should understand that the disc golfers who undertake, almost entirely by volunteer effort, to design and install DG courses are the most invested in keeping the grounds healthy and enjoyable for the greatest number of people far into the future. The alleged willingness to trash a 'natural' area to install 18 baskets is beyond absurd.

I read Ken's writing as being anti-disc golf, essentially. It's a pity. He is not recognizing who his potential allies down the road are.

Excellent intelligent post!

 

[kensanfran]

OK folks, I sincerely appreciate everyone who is trying to debate the issues here. I'm going to be on the road again soon, and I don't have time to respond to every post, so I'm going to pick someone recent to pick on ;-)

In a nutshell - the SFDGC was going to take care of McLaren just as we have done with GGP - and the course was only going to take a fraction of the park.

It's also hilarious that he acts like these parks are nature preserves yet admonishes us for wasting constantly used space in a densely populated area. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. These parks are urban, the idea of an idyllic little Yosemite in the middle of a city is nice - if only it were remotely true. His daughters are more likely to stumble across a used needle than a truly wild animal while "hiking" in the city.

Finally, he uses the argument that residents supposedly want many things installed before a disc golf course, and therefore he's in favor of respecting residents wishes, but isnt that contradictory to the "nature preserve" stance? IMO it's a weak attempt to throw up every opposing angle to disc golf specifically. It's not really about preserving parks, it's about blocking course installation.

I never said anything about pristine winderness, here is my direct quote:
The remaining relatively undeveloped natural areas are our last little bits of wildness (notice I did not say wilderness). Yes, you were going to take care of McLaren just like GGP - where as I described in my original post, many of the fairways are packed dirt/woodchips and the ones that are still partly green are only so because of irrigation -- of which there isn't any in McLaren. Every proposed course in McLaren over the past 12 years included fairways on steep slopes with thin topsoil, and every proposed course included several fairways in RPD-designated Important Bird Habitat. So it's an empty promise.

And all of these arguments about me not opposing soccer fields and so on are just silly. I'm a man of convictions but I'm not an idiot. Digging up soccer fields and trying to remediate back to any sort of native habitat is tilting at windmills. And no one is proposing new soccer fields or anything of the sort in McLaren's remaining natural areas because any such notions would be shot down immediately before I ever even heard about them. What's there is already there and not easily undone, which is why we have to protect what is left or it will be gone too. You want to add 18 concrete pads and retaining walls and tree nets and metal baskets and call it an "improvement" and "maintaining the park".

Let me tell you who is improving the park. SF Urban Riders recently got a grant to turn a long-abandoned eyesore of a 5-acre asphalt patch into a bike skills course, greening it as they can along the way. THIS is improving the park and our group fully supports this effort. But you want to take a lovely meadow where if you squint a bit you can feel like you are on a country trail, where the rule is "stay on the trail", and install infrastructure and play a game where it is impossible to stay on the trail, and where the much of the appeal of the game is bushwhacking to find your lost disc. Can you not see the distinction?

And do you have any clue as to the history of McLaren Park? Like most of the parks in San Francisco, it was basically the land no one wanted to build on. Up until the 1950's it was largely ranch land. You can still find old homestead foundations and fencerows and abandoned roadbeds if you know where to look. So it it a far cry from Yosemite (which was once partly ranch land as well but I digress). But it is as about as wild as we've got in a very crowded city and there isn't much left. There are still a very few places left in the city to escape from the built environment for a bit of solitude and nature and McLaren's "relatively undeveloped natural areas" are a prime example. Yes, I might have the resources to actually go to Yosemite or Half Moon Bay or wherever to find real wilderness now and then. But let me tell you, to the teachers I talk with who take their young students to McLaren when they get a chance (some who have never even seen the beach only a few miles away), it is a revelation all the same.

We have coyotes coming back into the park, we have nesting Great Horned Owls, and lots of native wildflowers and so on, and in over 10 years of visiting the park I have never once come across a dirty needle. So please just stop with all the tired talking points, leave your discs at home some day and just go enjoy the park on it's own terms. Or are you incapable of enjoying any sort of nature without banging some chains along the way?

And a final note about "sharing". The first time I ever visited the GGP course was after the first, last, and only tour of the proposed McLaren DG layout in 2010 (where it was presented as a "done deal" and just before construction was to start in a couple of months). I decided to simply walk the fairways as I found them, in the same way I would take a stroll in McLaren. It didn't take too long before I came around a corner and noticed a couple of guys standing on the tee pad some distance away. I didn't stop, but kept walking at a normal pace as I had been (what if I hadn't seen them? What if my vision had been poor? What if I didn't know I was on a disc golf course or even what the game was?). The guy didn't yell fore, he threw anyway, and missed my head by a few feet. His playing partner yelled at him, "hey man, you could have taken his head off". I glared as I walked by but got no apology or any other acknowledgement from either of them. What would your reaction have been? That I deserved it if I got hit, as someone earlier in this thread suggested?

That's my near-disc story, and pretty much everyone I know who has spent any time wandering around that course as a non-player has a similar story. Now, I know that YOU wouldn't do that, and I suspect none of your friends would do that either, but my experience tells me that a busy course is not a comfortable place to be if you're not playing the game.

Ken

 

[LoPan12]

What would your reaction have been? That I deserved it if I got hit, as someone earlier in this thread suggested?

Mind you, I don't wish you harm, but...
1. You know what disc golf is
2. You knew you were on a disc golf course
3. You are an avid proponent of how dangerous it is, which, I would think, means you think its dangerous
4. You saw them
5. You knew exactly what they were doing and what they intended to do

I'm not defending them or anything...but, to answer your question, yes, it would have been 50% your fault if you had been hit.

 

[kensanfran]

Mind you, I don't wish you harm, but...
1. You know what disc golf is
2. You knew you were on a disc golf course
3. You are an avid proponent of how dangerous it is, which, I would think, means you think its dangerous
4. You saw them
5. You knew exactly what they were doing and what they intended to do

I'm not defending them or anything...but, to answer your question, yes, it would have been 50% your fault if you had been hit.

Actually at that point I knew very little about disc golf, mostly what I had learned at that course walkthrough. Which was that the course could be "shared" and that we would see little to no impact from it's installation. I was dubious and was simply testing this claim. Which turned out to be false.

Ken

 

[redrum]

Actually at that point I knew very little about disc golf, mostly what I had learned at that course walkthrough. Which was that the course could be "shared" and that we would see little to no impact from it's installation. I was dubious and was simply testing this claim. Which turned out to be false.

Ken

At the walk through did they take you through how the course would flow? If so, then you are partially at fault, and there's reasoning why.

While the guys in your story weren't in the right to throw with you in the fairway, you have to realize that they make up a very small part of the DG community who simply go out to "enjoy" a course and don't have the respect that others demand of the sport. Don't base your views on the sport on one bad incident. How many people have gotten hit with pucks, bats, foul balls, Tennis balls, basketballs, basketball players, etc? Do you think they suddenly write off the sport that they chose to love and support up until their moment, or do you think they still watch, still go to games, still participate? I myself have been hit with a disc on 2 occasions, one of them out of my control, and another within. I still play this sport with passion and every bit of safety I can personally muster. But things happen and you just can't plan for them. Placing signs up warning people is the best thing one can do.

I play on a course quite regularly that has a lot of non DG foot traffic, and the club has to deal with the disrespect and inconsiderateness from that traffic on a daily basis. The front half of the course places a pavilion by the first 2 holes. While it would take a pretty bad throw to reach it (things happen) I have never seen a golfer who doesn't play more left of the fairway or be very aware of the area if people are using the pavilion. But what I have witnessed, and others can tell stories, is people who spread out from the area, who encroach into the fairways without any regard of what's going on around them. I have even seen children playing on and around a basket while I have been waiting on the tee, attempting to inform them of what was happening. Did I throw on them, no. Would I have been in my right to do so, in a way yes because they are in the field of play. If you were to run out onto a baseball diamond and subsequently get hit with a line drive, was it the batter's fault you were there, or yours? But would I have been right to do so, no. I simply tried to inform them they might not want to play in the area, because they could get hurt.

On the other side of the creek where the course runs, it is nothing but the disc golf course. It bumps up against some back yards, but those can only be reached by a 400' shot in a 90 degree direction away from the basket, it almost takes a certain level of skill to accomplish that lol. But even with this side of the creek for our use, we still don't get to enjoy it freely. There are constantly dog walkers who roam these holes, oblivious to their surroundings. Every effort is made to try and inform them before a tee shot is made, trust me. But they continually use the course as if THEY owned it, while us golfers are forced to play around them. They have an area on the other side of the creek and away from the course to do all the walking they wish, there are paths designated for such, that we as golfers do not use but for one weekend out of the year for an event. What makes it worse is the fact that none of them respect the city laws of the park, never have their dogs leashed, rarely pick up after them, and are always letting the dogs chase squirrels, treeing them or even killing them (I personally have had to end the life of a squirrel due to a broken back, and have seen carcasses around as ell).

The point is, while us golfers wish to have everyone enjoy the park, there does have to be boundries. If the course is clearly marked, and people chose to venture into the course, they do so at their own risk. Just like you did when you chose to walk the course backwards, without any sign that you were there. Had you chosen to walk with the flow, you would not have been in danger, as most golfers are accustomed to waiting a few minutes on a tee pad so the hole can open up. We do it for fellow golfers, we'll do it for a walker as well. I know I've done it, and I have friends who have done it. We even have an older couple who are very familiar with the sport, don't play, but regularly pick up bottles and cans, who move to the edge or creep out of the way to allow a throw, because they enjoy a chat for the walk of a fairway before they move on to the next hole. So long as they respect our game and our area, and not go wandering about, taking photos in the middle of the fairway with their family (I've seen it), making picnics in what is clearly a defined area (plenty of stories on here about that), or even using and abusing our baskets (see stories of deer feeders or charcoal grilling, all on here as well), most golfers really have no issue with sharing a course. Some of the top courses in the world, played by pros on the national tour have bike paths and picnic areas all around them.

If the other patrons of the park wish to have their wishes respect, we golfers ask that we receive the same respect. Disc golf is here to stay, and is growing by 5-15% EVERY YEAR. More courses will pop up, and parks will have to share. But it can be done correctly. I agree to the facts about impact to nature, yes grass gets worn away, trees get hit, and brush gets torn up...But there are lots of steps that can bring these effects to almost nothing. People just have to think and plan, not knee jerk and be stubborn. DG communities also present numerous channels for the community...my club alone has raised over 6k dollars last year to a local soup kitchen, and currently 3rd in the nation in funds raised...do soccer fields/ball golf courses/baseball diamonds and their relative sports offer any of that to compensate for their impact?

 

[DavidSauls]

Some of this is bolstering Ken's argument.

I'm as avid a proponent of more disc golf courses as anyone, but.....a course with much play is not particularly useful to non-disc-golfers. To say that they should be wary or heed warning signs is to acknowledge that disc golfers own the course. While most disc golfers are considerate of civilians sharing the park, you can't ignore the minority that aren't.

There are places where disc golf is a good fit and places where it isn't. I've played both. From thousands of miles away, I have no idea which McLaren Park is.

But let's be honest. It's a recreational use of the land. It's greener than athletic fields, (ball) golf, and homeless encampments, but not as green as trails or simply setting aside the land. It's a recreational use that allows some other users to enjoy the same land, but not nearly as much as if disc golf weren't there.

 

[Ferguson]

"Besides, who wants to walk around an open space with hard plastic projectiles flying around at highway speeds? No one takes a casual stroll on a regular golf course, and they won't on a well-used disc golf course either."

I spot Lookey Loo's watching all the time. Nothing like getting an Ace while someone stopped whatever they were doing to watch you throw. For some its part of their walk in the park. A little consideration for others on both sides goes a long way.

 

[ohtobediscing]

Wait for it....

Occupy McLaren Park!


There---that should put Ken over a barrel.

 

[harr0140]

While I do not condone throwing at people regardless of the situation (and I will always give a pre-emptive "excuse me I am throwing a disc here") I wonder . . .would you walk across a soccer field in the middle of a game? Would you take your pogo stick onto a basket ball court and say it fair game to share that part of the park or would you let people use the areas as they were designed?

The problem may be made worse by disc golfers (who could also use some education on etiquette from the game of golf!) but it also comes down to education of the other park goers. Many people do not know about disc golf and don't understand how a course is laid out or even what we are doing so they often happen upon a hole without knowing they are on a disc golf course. This shouldn't happen. That is why I will educate them as to what we are doing so they know to be careful and watch for discs. As an additional thought here . . . we need signage . . . at the most likely entrance points to our courses so that people have technically been warned about the activity happening in that area. That will help people understand our game, exactly what to look out for etc. and will encourage them to find alternative routes around our courses.

 

[DSmith]

I think that if you want to get a course in you need to be willing to sign an agreement to the effect that the local club will become stewards of the land and do what that can to preserve the land to the best of their abilities. If after say 3 years the area shows significant damage due to the presence of the course then the property owners can pull the course , no questions asked.

Too much to ask of the disc golf community? Probably. But maybe this is a wake up call for all of you guys that like to talk alot about "how your going to do this and that" but never actually follow through.

As a President for several years and the main caretaker of the courses in the Lexington area I have seen what all Ken is talking about and what he uses as his talking points against installing a disc golf course. As a promoter of the "sport" and course designer and installer I can also see the irritation you all have with someone like Ken. He brings up alot of good points and until we all aknowlege the truth and start to take this seriously and take care of the courses its going to get harder and harder to get new ones in.

 

[Lewis]

I don't have my spreadsheet handy but from memory, there no DG courses on public lands in Chicago, Atlanta, Washington DC, nor any of the boroughs of NYC, for starters. Even sprawling, freeway-bound LA has only one, and laid-back San Diego has only one pay-to-play course. In the surrounding less-crowded burbs? That's another story. So as others have noted, these issues are primarily local and should be decided by local residents.

Ken, you seem like a fairly reasonable guy -- or at least you play one on the internet -- and it speaks volumes that you're showing us the respect to come onto a disc golf web forum and make your case to us without resorting to name-calling and personal attacks. That alone goes a long way towards keeping you off the "environmentalist whack-job with a personal vendetta" list among disc golfers.

To understand the knee-jerk rudeness you'll get from some disc golfers, you should be aware that many disc golfers literally devote years of their own free time to designing and developing disc golf courses, starting with appropriate communication with their local government, then continuing with the planning, project management, and physical labor, sometimes even through the complete installation of a disc golf course, only to have their years of hard work and anticipation callously dashed by stubborn, uninformed NIMBYs who seem to live in continual fear of the possibility that somebody somewhere near them is having fun. In some parts of the country, this pattern is so common as to be expected every time there is a new course approved and installed -- and the vast majority of the opposition to disc golf comes from people who know little to nothing about it, and whose assumptions are as false as they are set in stone. Until you've been through an experience like this yourself, it's hard to appreciate the frustration that these disc golfers are expressing with their instinctive hostility towards "save the park" organizations who seem more interested in killing disc golf than in actually saving anything. They give lip service to the idea that disc golf is appropriate somewhere else, but that somewhere else never seems to be identified. So it's worth repeating that your willingness to come to us and respectfully make your case will help immeasurably in making the debate about McLaren park a mutually respectful conversation rather than a fight among committed, entrenched enemies.

I'd like to return the favor of your respect, but since I've never actually been within 1,000 miles of McLaren Park or its community, I can't add any helpful points to your particular situation. However, as someone else has hinted, you should probably update your research on the urban areas with disc golf in public lands, lest you lose credibility by missing the facts. Specifically, you should be aware that a permanent disc golf course has recently be installed at Perkerson Park inside the Atlanta city limits. You can probably find all kinds of information on the internet about the park and how the disc golf course went through the local approval process before permanent installation. I believe the development of the course at Perkerson Park could serve both sides of the debate on "whether or not to install a disc golf course in Park XYZ" as a case study for how to do things the right way.

Here's hoping y'all are all able to find the best solution for everyone in your community.