Marshall Street PDGA Rules Letter

[DiscJunkie]

This is an area where the middle ground has been the optimum balancing point for the tradeoffs since the mid-80s. Flex and weight standards have been there since the mid-80s. Overweight and less flexible discs have regularly been made since then to the best of our knowledge. Players haven't made more than a handful of calls since the mid-80s. TDs haven't tested the discs.

While the microscope may be focused on this cockeyed balancing act right now with Gateway and Prodigy compliance, players are still not calling out other players and TDs are not testing. I would expect the PDGA to act only if that starts becoming a cumbersome issue at events, but not just because people are complaining.

While I usually stand up and cheer in Chuck's corner, I'm not agreeing on this one.

Either enforce the rule or eliminate it.

If this rule is commonly ignored, and nobody cares, and it isn' needed, then get rid of it.

Don't retain a rule or standard that everyone hopes will just be ignored.

 

[tbird888]

This is an area where the middle ground has been the optimum balancing point for the tradeoffs since the mid-80s. Flex and weight standards have been there since the mid-80s. Overweight and less flexible discs have regularly been made since then to the best of our knowledge. Players haven't made more than a handful of calls since the mid-80s. TDs haven't tested the discs.

While the microscope may be focused on this cockeyed balancing act right now with Gateway and Prodigy compliance, players are still not calling out other players and TDs are not testing. I would expect the PDGA to act only if that starts becoming a cumbersome issue at events, but not just because people are complaining.

Chuck, I know I've been a thorn in your side on this issue, but I'm calling BS again. This isn't a rule of competition, like a foot fault. It's a standard for equipment compliance. There's no way for a TD to accurately make that call at a picnic table during an event. This is something that needs to be enforced prior to the equipment even leaving the factory. Stop illegal

While I know that the PDGA is a player organization, why do we, as players, even need the PDGA if they're not going to take any steps to control the few pre-competition variables that they could? The "call it in play" argument is garbage since very few of the discs in my bag have been touched by anyone but myself. The only time I can think of a fellow competitor even touching one of my discs was to pull my putter out of the basket and immediately hand it to me on our way to the next hole. My drivers and mids go from the ground into my bag immediately. The same is true of 99% of all of my previous card mates. Honestly, how is anyone supposed to call that rule violation? It's a joke, plain and simple.

 

[unclemercy]

good post above. enforcing the flex test makes me laugh.

the pdga has no rules. only suggested guidelines for play. ive taken the time to state my case way better before. see also for years on the pdga boards. i was called anti association and a hater by the blind support staff and eventually just psshed em off and took up new causes.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Call BS if you wish. What I posted is what appears to be the PDGA position which is essentially stay the course unless enough actions and turmoil in the tournament world make it necessary to do something. They did have a scale at the Memorial NT for players to check their discs if they wished. I heard two calls of some sort were made possibly along these lines but the discs were found to be okay. It's a case of "be careful what you wish for" because any changes will be disruptive at events and/or in your pocketbook.

It's not that people haven't brainstormed ways or provided suggestions including me to make compliance better. It's how to cleverly make it happen without costing many people time and/or money in the process. I think the PDGA would be open for solutions along those lines. But your solution has to not make any more work for the PDGA nor cost the PDGA, its members and manufacturers anything to implement it. Ready, Go!

 

[tbird888]

But your solution has to not make any more work for the PDGA nor cost the PDGA, its members and manufacturers anything to implement it. Ready, Go!

If the PDGA isn't going to enforce the standard, remove it. Boom. No cost solution. It actually will save the manufacturers money because they won't have to make a test run before starting production. Will they then pass that savings on to the consumers though?

 

[Widdershins]

Call BS if you wish. What I posted is what appears to be the PDGA position which is essentially stay the course unless enough actions and turmoil in the tournament world make it necessary to do something. They did have a scale at the Memorial NT for players to check their discs if they wished. I heard two calls of some sort were made possibly along these lines but the discs were found to be okay. It's a case of "be careful what you wish for" because any changes will be disruptive at events and/or in your pocketbook.

It's not that people haven't brainstormed ways or provided suggestions including me to make compliance better. It's how to cleverly make it happen without costing many people time and/or money in the process. I think the PDGA would be open for solutions along those lines. But your solution has to not make any more work for the PDGA nor cost the PDGA, its members and manufacturers anything to implement it. Ready, Go!

Well said, Mr. Kennedy.

It is easy to bitch about a problem. It is difficult to find a rational, workable solution.

Here the problem is minor so the solution needs to be simple and painless.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If the PDGA isn't going to enforce the standard, remove it. Boom. No cost solution. It actually will save the manufacturers money because they won't have to make a test run before starting production. Will they then pass that savings on to the consumers though?

You've got to have published standards for a variety of reasons just like speed limits whether enforced or not. So that ain't gonna happen. Next idea?

 

[tbird888]

Here the problem is minor so the solution needs to be simple and painless.

I disagree that the problem is minor. It exposes how seemingly out of touch the governing body of our sport is with their members.

Dave Mac said that, with the G9i and medium plastics, he was giving the consumers what they want. Technically, he's breaking the PDGA standard because the product is in demand. The PDGA also says the standards exist because that's what the members want (being a member-driven organization). If the members didn't want harder discs, Gateway wouldn't have the demand to want to produce them. Who is telling the story correctly?

 

[All Day]

They can take our lives, but they'll never take my G9i Wizzzzzaaaarrrrrrddddddd!

 

[Hampstead]

If the manufacturers don't care, why should we?

 

[R-Intermediate]

I would say, simply start enforcing the rules that are in place. Place the burden on the manufacturers to maintain the standards. Grandfather in discs are ready in play while adding a new type of pdga approved logo of sorts, production lot based. If the liability is placed on the manufacturers I would think they would abide by the rules or risk losing customers.

Sounds reasonable to me but I'm sure there are details I'm over looking.

 

[tbird888]

You've got to have published standards for a variety of reasons just like speed limits whether enforced or not. So that ain't gonna happen. Next idea?

Those standards are being ignored and aren't enforced. What's the difference between having them / not having them at this point? The "look, we have these standards, but it's our members' job to enforce them" argument doesn't hold a lot of water.

I honestly do feel for the PDGA in this situation. While competitive disc golf is growing, it's not "big" enough yet to give the PDGA any real power over manufacturers. It's a real drag. It is terrible that their hands are tied, but as competition evolves, I do believe problems like this (equipment-related) are going to become an issue a lot more regularly. Unfortunately, I don't see members or manufacturers effectively regulating this. That leaves only one option for who is to do it...the organization that governs the sport.

I would say, simply start enforcing the rules that are in place. Place the burden on the manufacturers to maintain the standards. Grandfather in discs are ready in play while adding a new type of pdga approved logo of sorts, production lot based. If the liability is placed on the manufacturers I would think they would abide by the rules or risk losing customers.

Sounds reasonable to me but I'm sure there are details I'm over looking.

As Chuck mentioned earlier, how do you do that without passing on the added costs to the consumers and members? The amount of PDGA members that are customers vs casuals who have no idea that sanctioned competition even exists is staggering in favor of the casuals. Manufacturers could walk away from the PDGA and not miss that business.

 

[Mr. America]

You people are making issues out of nothing. Obviously this isn't really a problem for anybody at all.

 

[DikkaD]

I paid attention and tried to care to the whole fiasco until "IDGC Supervisor" responded to my statement that the new flat top Firebirds were also too stiff with a claim that they were tested and while being stiff, they passed. I believe that is a blatant lie and an insult to my intelligence and after that I went into the F* PDGA mode. If they're going to be so selective about enforcing their own rules, I'm going to be equally selective about following them. And if they honestly believe I'm stupid, I might as well play stupid.

Right on brother......off to flatten my discs

 

[dehaas]

I think in a perfect world each run would be designated from others sort of how Millennium does it (yeah I know that the runs on the stamp aren't necessarily correct). A handful of random samples would be taken from a run and tested.

The trick is getting everybody on board though. End result is your PDGA membership skyrocketing in price because they now have to pay somebody to test all of the samples, or disc prices skyrocket because the testing occurs on their end and some manufacturers might choose to be more ethical than others about passing their own discs.

Flex needs to be a proportion of either the rim width or some measurement of nose sharpness. I think everybody is in agreement that a warp speeder will do more damage than a stiff putter.

The lack of a clear cut solution to a situation like this is why many people do not consider disc golf a true sport yet. No doubt top pros have athletic talent, but it's hard to be taken seriously when you have rules that are next to impossible to enforce.

 

[R-Intermediate]

As Chuck mentioned earlier, how do you do that without passing on the added costs to the consumers and members? The amount of PDGA members that are customers vs casuals who have no idea that sanctioned competition even exists is staggering in favor of the casuals. Manufacturers could walk away from the PDGA and not miss that business.

I see, in that light I'm unsure that a solution actually exists.

 

[Cgkdisc]

One idea I had suggested was to create a standard rectangular plastic mold about the perimeter of a smartphone and maybe 10mm thick. Manufacturers would make this rectangular blank before each run of a new plastic compound (not necessarily color change) and flex test that in some way. If it met that flex test then all approved disc models that would be made from that material were good to go from a flex standpoint and the current test would be scrapped. The manufacturers would save the blanks for later testing again, possibly by the PDGA, if the question ever came up about that plastic compound not being flexible enough, but not a particular disc model being flexible enough.

 

[joegraham]

I'm sure the quality control is not very sophistocated and consistent in these small manufacturers so out of standard products come out all the time. There are still "illegal" ball golf clubs and balls that are mass produced and targeted to "recreational" players that are not legal in sanctioned competitive play. Golf discs are similar. Remember the Ninja? Purposely made illegal and can't be used in sanctioned tournies. The Turbo Putt and the Wheel are now illegal.

So, the other side of the coin is the recreational products for recreational players are going to be out there, and the PDGA is not equipped to inspect players discs, so it has been designed as a players orginazation and the rules are for self governing. WE the golfers are responsible for what we use in sanctioned play. Get a digital scale.

 

[jrawk]

I understand the max weight rules, and how specific advantages can come from throwing heavier discs. And, that is relatively easy to regulate at many different levels. The flex rule is largely unenforceable and any safety issue should be considered OBE (overcome by events) since sharp nose, wide wing discs can cause more injury than any stiff putter. And what negative impact is there if the PDGA lifts away the flex rule?

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think the PDGA is boxed in from a legal standpoint. Drop the flex standard and any good lawyer going after the PDGA and manufacturers for compensation when a person gets injured will bring up the "lack of concern for safety" shown by the org and manufacturers who took advantage of that loophole when it eliminated the flex standard.