To Chalk or not to Chalk

[roblee]

PDGA allows grip aids for play, QA-EQU-4. Grip aids are not defined but could reasonably include dust, chalk, even something tacky.

PDGA prohibits applying chalk to discs unless night or snow play is announced by the Director (813.01).

Chalk is allowed in many sports and IMO is appropriate for DG. It's common to see the world's top players use chalk/dust bags and to pat their discs before throwing.

A preliminary discussion with the RC suggested applying chalk to hands is different than applying it to discs and that patting a disc with a chalk bag could make the disc illegal.

These positions seem unnecessarily in conflict. Suggest:
1) Remove "chalk dust" from 813.01. 2) Establish a position such that patting a disc with a chalk bag is allowed.

Applicable docs attached below for convenance.

QA-EQU-4: May I use stuff on my hands to get a better grip?
Yes. The use of grip aids is acceptable since nothing in the rules specifically prohibits their use. You may need to clean the disc periodically to prevent grip material from building up and adding thickness or weight to the disc.

813.01 Illegal Disc
Last updated: Saturday, March 3, 2018 - 09:47
Discs used in play must meet all of the conditions set forth in the PDGA Technical Standards.
A disc which has been modified after production such that its original flight characteristics have been altered is illegal, excepting wear from usage during play and the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrapes. Discs excessively sanded, or painted with a material of detectable thickness, are illegal. Adding a device to make a disc easier to find (for example, a light, ribbon, or chalk dust is allowed only when night or snow play has been announced by the Director.

 

[BillFleming]

I'd like to know the answer to this - is patting the disc with a chalk bag allowed or not
....I've seen players pat their disc with a chalk bag....I've seen players get chalk on their hand and then pat it onto the disc....I've seen players pat their disc with other bags (Birdie bags, WhaleSacs, etc).

 

[Horsman]

Ditto, I do it. Have I been illegally doing this for years?

 

[dmoore1998]

I think it would be hard to argue that patting a disc with regular grip chalk (or other common grip enhancers) is doing so in order to make it "easier to find". That's the only applicable section that mentions chalk dust.

 

[flatflip]

 

[roblee]

The "easier to find" restriction is really a head scratcher. Like a rule saying you can't carry an eraser if you plan to use it to cheat otherwise you can. Why prohibit chalk to help find it but use it any other time for any reason? The other thing is the suggestion that patting a disc with chalk may render it illegal. There is a legal concept where it's improper to give you permission to do something then punish you when you do it (regardless of motive). Estoppel. Maybe this never has and never will come up but discussing it is interesting & fun.

 

[Agricolae]

Suggest:
1) Remove "chalk dust" from 813.01. 2) Establish a position such that patting a disc with a chalk bag is allowed.

Agreed. Committing to the first suggestion would make the second unnecessary.

In my opinion, the rules as written are lumping together "climbers/gymnasts chalk" (an aid to grip) with colored "line chalk" used for construction and carpentry. As far as policing "line chalk" being illegal, you'd be able to spot the culprit from across the course.

 

[Jimb]

I can't imagine using chalk. If anything, I have to moisturize. Only under the most hot and humid conditions do I even need to use a dry towel. That's just me I guess.

And if there would be a penalty for people using chalk, I think it would be hard to justify.

 

[roblee]

As far as policing "line chalk" being illegal, you'd be able to spot the culprit from across the course.

Sure hope we could stop regulating different colors of chalk:\

 

[Rastnav]

Sure hope we could stop regulating different colors of chalk:\

I'm just trying to figure out why chalk would make the disc easier to spot than some fluorescent dye job. Like, I'm imagining one of those rescue smoke flares, but puffing out chalk.

 

[krupicka]

I'm just trying to figure out why chalk would make the disc easier to spot than some fluorescent dye job. Like, I'm imagining one of those rescue smoke flares, but puffing out chalk.

Players will dip their disc in line chalk when throwing in deep snow to see where it cut into the snow. That is what the rule is allowing for. This is a specific exception for snow play.

 

[Agricolae]

I'm just trying to figure out why chalk would make the disc easier to spot than some fluorescent dye job. Like, I'm imagining one of those rescue smoke flares, but puffing out chalk.

For playing in snow* ... look for the colored chalk spot where the disc penetrated the surface, dig down and find the disc. White gymnasts chalk would not be beneficial; different chalk, different purpose. Confusing rule stated in the OP as both are simply referred to as "chalk".

(*So I've heard.)

 

[Steve West]

For playing in snow* ... look for the colored chalk spot where the disc penetrated the surface, dig down and find the disc. White gymnasts chalk would not be beneficial; different chalk, different purpose. Confusing rule stated in the OP as both are simply referred to as "chalk".

(*So I've heard.)

The word "chalk" only appears once in the rules. In the section about snow play.

The QA in question refers to "stuff on my hands to get a better grip" and "grip aids".

Read the rules, don't react to what someone says the rules are.

 

[roblee]

The word "chalk" only appears once in the rules. In the section about snow play.

The QA in question refers to "stuff on my hands to get a better grip" and "grip aids".

Read the rules, don't react to what someone says the rules are.

No intention to mislead: Stuff is a nice inclusive term that includes chalk, no? That is what I see players use. As a grip aid I presume. Blue stuff is regulated and white stuff isn't; I thought that was weird. Blue stuff: sometimes you can use it and sometimes you can't. Like the 2 meter option. OK, moving on. My main question was the suggestion that patting a disc with a chalk bag may render a disc illegal. Before I ask RC for clarification I threw it out here discussion.

 

[Horsman]

I can't imagine using chalk. If anything, I have to moisturize. Only under the most hot and humid conditions do I even need to use a dry towel. That's just me I guess.

And if there would be a penalty for people using chalk, I think it would be hard to justify.

lucky, I use chalk to get rid of the grip on my hand. I wish I could go out on an 80 degree day and not have to use chalk or dirt.

 

[Jimb]

lucky, I use chalk to get rid of the grip on my hand. I wish I could go out on an 80 degree day and not have to use chalk or dirt.

I played 9 holes of dg on a lighted ball golf course last night. It was hot and crazy humid. I totally grip locked several shots. I wonder if I could have used chalk. It was really hard to keep even my hands a reasonable amount of moist. The air was just thick after a thunderstorm had gone through. These were certainly not typical conditions for me.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

No intention to mislead: Stuff is a nice inclusive term that includes chalk, no? That is what I see players use. As a grip aid I presume. Blue stuff is regulated and white stuff isn't; I thought that was weird. Blue stuff: sometimes you can use it and sometimes you can't. Like the 2 meter option. OK, moving on. My main question was the suggestion that patting a disc with a chalk bag may render a disc illegal. Before I ask RC for clarification I threw it out here discussion.

Why are you stuck on the color when the difference in application is patting a disc and applying the substance?

To find the disc in snow a significant amount of chalk is applied to the disc. Patting the disc with a chalk bag or whale sack or birdie bag or whatever could be argued its not applying chalk, its just absorbing moisture. I know when I do it I normally also wipe the disc off. In this regard only Nikko seems to be using enough of the stuff to actually build up to a noticeable thickness.

 

[roblee]

Blue & white chalk is all I've seen & they differentiate the 2 chalk scenarios regulated by PDGA. I understand that QA-EQU-04 is about a grip aid & Rule 813.01B a visibility aid. The question I've posed is regarding a preliminary response I got from Rules Committee that patting a disc with a chalk bag (as commonly seen) may render it illegal. I don't think that should be illegal and am seeking opinions prior to asking the RC for clarification. Rule 813.01B prohibits "painting" a detectable thickness. I don't care about any of this, just curious.

 

[uncle pennybags]

Could it be as simple as the chalk is temporary build up of thickness and painting is more permanent?

Kind of like mud caked on your disc can be wiped off.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

Could it be as simple as the chalk is temporary build up of thickness and painting is more permanent?

Kind of like mud caked on your disc can be wiped off.

Temporary build up is just as illegal. But this is the point and Roblee keeps ignoring words he is posting.

The point of the rule is, it is against the rules to add a material that changes flight characteristics of a disc by way of altering weight, weight distribution or aerodynamics. Enough chalk to have a detectable thickness could possibly do this. A dusting of chalk in one spot for dryness likely won't.

Detectable thickness.

If you don't pat the disc with chalk but you have so much build up on your hand that it is caking on the disc that needs to be wiped off.