Idea for new rule:

[TalbotTrojan]

On a good course there are going to be lies off the fairway that I don't want to run up on anyways. I think the terrain should dictate this, not an arbitrary line set down. If you really want to make it tougher, just make it an ob line. They do that in ball golf too.

 

[ScottyLove]

Fire pit hazards of course!!

Flames between you and the hole... why not?
Ultimate Hazard??

 

[ScottyLove]

Flames between you and the hole... why not?
Ultimate Hazard??

Oops... wrong thread... this was supposed to be in the Next Evolution thread... couldn't find a way to delete it.

 

[Dave242]

On a good course there are going to be lies off the fairway that I don't want to run up on anyways. I think the terrain should dictate this, not an arbitrary line set down. If you really want to make it tougher, just make it an ob line. They do that in ball golf too.

I don't think making it tougher is the only goal. In my mind you ideally want risk/reward decisions that are intriguing/fun....and ones that give you the option to recover if you miss your mark by a little, but still punish/push you since you screwed up.

You are right that on wooded courses it is easy (easier) to attain this. But what about courses devoid of good rough? Coincidentally, those are the courses that can allow for a good size gallery and facilitate a compelling live broadcast.

Here is such a hole that I quickly whipped up (and I'm sure it can be improved upon). It is in a ~700' hole on a flat open field with only staked ropes added for demarcation (like Winthrop Gold at USDGC does).

The biggest arms could attempt to get to A. But if they fall short (B), their lie is at C. They have to throw with no run-up (S&D) and will be lucky to get to D. If they do not reach D (or over throw it), they will be facing another S&D throw. So, in their attempt at a 3, now they are facing a 5 and maybe/probably even a 6 (with only one of those being a penalty).

The lesser arms want to push up the chute right of D. But the harder they push, the closer they get to S&D territory and a 300-350' S&D shot limiting their birdie approach. This will kill some players chance, but for players who have the skill developed, there is a "heroic" opportunity for them still to recover from missing their mark.

I like this a lot. Maybe others' mileage will vary.

.

 

[sidewinder22]

That doesn't affect a player who only stands and delivers anyways so there is no risk/reward for them.

 

[Dave242]

On a side note, something occurred to me while making the diagram that we have discussed here in the past: the inherent random nature of bounces that tree trunks and branches can cause discs. For 2 discs thrown 100% identically, one of them can hit a tree and fall straight down into a nice spot in the fairway, while the other gets moved 3" to the right or left by a puff of wind and takes a kick 100' into the woods with no chance at recovery (and maybe even takes 2-3 strokes to recover). This is very random and leads to luck-based scoring separation (more true the shorter the event is).....this is not desirable in tournament play (skill-based competition).

Ropes and grass do not have that problem much.....it is much more deterministic. And, now with S&D you've got proportional levels of punishment that mimic wooded fairway punishment but without nearly as much random luck coming into play. Seems like a positive....although I am a woods player to the core and hate to admit this.

 

[Dave242]

That doesn't affect a player who only stands and delivers anyways so there is no risk/reward for them.

So? Good for them. Many trees that are great obstacle to most are not really obstacles for players who have developed the skill of performing good overhand shots. Does that make the use of those trees less of a good idea?

 

[sidewinder22]

So...the rolling fairways and roughs of ball golf also have good and bad kicks.

The roughs/traps of ball golf don't really affect footing much if at all, they are more to change the way the club grips the ball. I'd rather propose you having to throw with Vaseline on your disc in marked areas. That would be much more akin to ball golf rough.

 

[zjones9]

Great diagram/example, Dave :thmbup:

 

[sidewinder22]

Great diagram/example, Dave :thmbup:

Terrible idea. :thmbdown:

Roughs should affect disc grip more so than the stance from which to throw. You could even use different gloves for different types of roughs, a slippery glove for the equivalent of sand traps that make it hard to spin the ball/disc, and a grippy glove for the equivalent of tall grass rough that makes it harder to release the club/disc.

 

[tom12003]

Dave,
Your diagram above is interesting, BUT ...... please have "mercy" on us who spend many days in September marking the OB at Winthrop; Doing a second set of rope/string would not be our cup of tea.

 

[Dave242]

Oh come Tom! After carving out the fairways at Plantation Ruins, laying rope is like a Hawaiian vacation! How many chiggers did you get laying rope?

One idea to incorporate S&D without having to lay extra rope would be to have all competitors (and spotters) carry a 2M string to measure with. If a disc lands within 2M from the rope it is S&D. If it is outside of that on the OB side, it is OB and gets marked 1M in from the rope. If you want S&D only in some areas, use a different color rope (or stakes).

 

[sidewinder22]

Just say no to S&D. Say yes to slip/rough gloves.

 

[Pwingles]

Wow, another whole thread dedicated to this silly idea.

 

[sidewinder22]

How about...you have to throw from a handstand?

 

[Steve West]

On a side note, something occurred to me while making the diagram that we have discussed here in the past: the inherent random nature of bounces that tree trunks and branches can cause discs. For 2 discs thrown 100% identically, one of them can hit a tree and fall straight down into a nice spot in the fairway, while the other gets moved 3" to the right or left by a puff of wind and takes a kick 100' into the woods with no chance at recovery (and maybe even takes 2-3 strokes to recover). This is very random and leads to luck-based scoring separation (more true the shorter the event is).....this is not desirable in tournament play (skill-based competition).

Ropes and grass do not have that problem much.....it is much more deterministic. And, now with S&D you've got proportional levels of punishment that mimic wooded fairway punishment but without nearly as much random luck coming into play. Seems like a positive....although I am a woods player to the core and hate to admit this.

First, it is just as random whether a disc that gets blown 3 feet and hits a tree or gets blown 3 feet and barely lands on the wrong side of a rope.

Second, over a number of holes, the gusts of wind will even out, and the winner will be the player who had the level of ability needed to be able to choose to throw more than three feet away from the tree or rope and still get the disc to go where it should.

So, that tree and those gusts of wind actually produce skill-based scoring separation using the nearest thing we have to partial throws (a higher average over many holes).

It's the same as a forced water carry. It separates those who can throw way beyond it from those who can sometimes make it and from those who can't. The little bit of randomness in whether the medium player clears the water or not just serves to allocate partial throws (on average over a number of holes) for being able to only barely make it.

You can't get less random and still dole out partial throws.

 

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

I understand this, but there are MANY courses out there that are just too open, and have NO obstacles that could create a bad lie. This would prevent people from just "airing it out" on a 900 ft hole on the first shot and cause them to have at least a little bit of placement.

You can't honestly say that you have never played a course that has holes that don't fairly punish a bad or errant throw.

Avery would have to quit.


JK man. Luv ya.

 

[Dave242]

First, it is just as random whether a disc that gets blown 3 feet and hits a tree or gets blown 3 feet and barely lands on the wrong side of a rope.

.....

So, that tree and those gusts of wind actually produce skill-based scoring separation using the nearest thing we have to partial throws (a higher average over many holes).

Does your rationale also hold true on calm days? What about on days when wind is not gusty, but is clean (the idea for S&D is for use on open courses)? Is gusty wind something you can design into a course like trees?

I am taking a complete SWAG here and saying "no" and "no" and "no".

 

[Steve West]

Does your rationale also hold true on calm days?

Yes. There is a degree of uncertainty in where every throw will land, even on calm days. Players can take that into account when deciding whether to throw near enough danger to take a risk, or far enough away to be safe. I think most players can't help but try for that little extra edge, and take a risk to get it. So, on calm days, they'll be throwing closer to the edge (or tree or mando) than they would on gusty days, but they'll end up with about the same probability of punishment - or at least some probability.

What about on days when wind is not gusty, but is clean (the idea for S&D is for use on open courses)?

Yes, same as for calm days.

Is gusty wind something you can design into a course like trees?

Yes. Just like trees, you look for the winds that are already there. If you can design something out, you can do the opposite and design it in. You can design gusty winds out by putting all the holes in the midst of pine trees. (Rarely are there gusty winds on #4 at BRP.) So, you can design for gusty winds by placing a hole in an area which is known for gusty winds and eliminating wind breaks. Also, look at the discussions of adding or eliminating trees to make for swirly winds at Augusta.

I am taking a complete SWAG here and saying "no" and "no" and "no".

 

[sidewinder22]

...so nobody wants to even entertain my "rough" gloves idea? :\