or just smack them in the back with it while they throw their up-shot-- true punishment for a bad lie.
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Idea for new rule:
- Thread starter zjones9
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zjones9
Par Member
^^Now we are getting somewhere!!
Though I think I would have a very sore back if that rule goes into effect...
Though I think I would have a very sore back if that rule goes into effect...
Or if someone land in the forbidden zone, the rest of the group can place their bags and stools strategically around and behind the lie to encumber the thrower's stance, run-up, and/or follow-through. A fivesome with pull-carts could create quite a minefield.
More seriously, and with respect to the O.P., many of the objections in the S&D thread still apply, even in a very-limited-use special condition. Starting with the actual wording of the rule, and going from there.
Weigh these against the very slight benefit it might provide.
Weigh these against the very slight benefit it might provide.
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I can't tell for sure with this being the internet and all, but it seems like you are mocking the idea. If not, the idea with the bamboo pole is adding an element to the game that has no precedence (adding an obstacle that is variable not encountered consistently by all competitors).
The strategic use of S&D in design has precedence:
1) stance rules - 10M rule
2) penalty by artificial means (and even with added throw by rule with OB) with OB & Buncr.
It could add quite a bit to quite a few holes out there (I have tournament play in mind).
The strategic use of S&D in design has precedence:
1) stance rules - 10M rule
2) penalty by artificial means (and even with added throw by rule with OB) with OB & Buncr.
It could add quite a bit to quite a few holes out there (I have tournament play in mind).
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
If you create a marked area where S&D is "temporarily" required when you land in it until there's budget money to fill the area with pea gravel so the temporary rule isn't needed, wouldn't it save a lot of money everywhere to simply allow marked hazard areas to permanently be declared S&D hazards?
zjones9
Par Member
I think you and I are on the same page :hfive:. I don't claim to know the best way to implement this idea, but I do think that it could really make some holes out their much more enjoyable as well as allow for more options on courses that have yet to be made.
And I think the bamboo idea was in sarcasm.
And thumbs up to Cgkdisc! That is a step towards something that could be feasible.
zjones9
Par Member
This is strictly my personal opinion, but for me the benefit is much more than "slight".
For instance, a local course was recently prepared for a small tournament. The TD roped off hole 1 to make it an island hole, as well as adding temporary OB zones strategically placed throughout the course. Doing this on open holes increased the skill required for the shot as well as the "fun-factor" 10 fold!!! This was obviously not the same as making S&D zones, but I think it helps to illustrate my point.
EDIT: I'm like the double post king of this thread...sorry
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Let's look at the USGCG as a case study. Yellow ropes (or water or pavement or fencing) lining almost all holes. And, most of the holes are multi-throw holes.
The difference between in bounds (a "good" throw) and out of bounds (a "bad" throw) is <1" (less than a hair too)......yet the penalty is is an entire throw! Or, an entire throw and the distance already achieved in "stroke and distance" play.
I have argued for a long time that missing the middle 1/3 to 2/3's of the fairway is a "bad" throw at Winthrop Gold......that is a throw that got away from the player as intended and is therefore in danger of going OB. So in reality, the yellow rope is not the demarcation between good and bad throws. But, the scorecard tells a different story......as do the majority of players who do not like the binary nature of OB. There is a philosophical divide.
One use then of S&D would be to have a S&D zone lining the inside of OB line by 5-10'. That would make this philosophical divide meaningful on the scorecard:
1) If you missed the heart of the fairway you would be in the "2nd cut" and would have a harder 2nd throw (or 3rd or 4th).
2) If you landed in OB, you would be throwing S&D from the 2nd cut
3) Harold could widen out the OB a little and encourage more risk in the drive since the risk/reward is not binary any longer.
4) S&D would really show its teeth if you threw out over OB and never came back in bounds (the flip-side of the risk/reward calculation from #3).
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Kind of the problem with this idea is that just like stringed off OB, you have to have precise definitions of where a fairway begins and ends.
We've used a similar "bunker" idea on my home course for years, where if you land in certain areas (including some actual sand bunkers), you're still in bounds, but you have to throw a shot with your thumb on the bottom of the disc. This is to simulate chipping out of a bunker in ball golf.
We've used a similar "bunker" idea on my home course for years, where if you land in certain areas (including some actual sand bunkers), you're still in bounds, but you have to throw a shot with your thumb on the bottom of the disc. This is to simulate chipping out of a bunker in ball golf.
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I like it! Easy to explain and enforce. But a disc grip rule does not have any precedence in the rules....so IMO getting the people who are stuck on history/tradition (the crowd with the "never been done that way before" objection) might have a harder time accepting it.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
When the RC and course designers were polled on this topic several years ago - penalty shots, lie relocation and stance restraint all rated as better, more appropriate penalties than throw type restriction. So, mess with your feet but not your arm(s).
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FTFY (I think that's internetese for fixed that for you)
My opinion, and also just strictly my personal opinion, is that while marked-off O.B. can have a significant strategic effect if done right, marked-off S&D areas won't. Probably less than 1% of golf holes are long enough for it to matter, and are so open that they don't already have obstacles to the throw, lie, or line of play to punish players who miss the fairway. On those 1%, S&D reduces the next throw to, what, 80% of a full delivery? Or the player can S&D a driver where he would have otherwise thrown a midrange, so has 20% less accuracy? And some players who already S&D all their shots, won't be affected at all.
That's where my "slight" comes from.
zjones9
Par Member
I agree that it would only affect a small number of current holes, but I think you are underestimating by how much, specifically on the open par 5's. And for those that S&D for all shots, well I think we can agree that they are in the vast minority. There are many that S&D for most of their second/third/and so on shots, but it's pretty rare that someone won't take a run up on a 2nd shot that is still 300-600ft away! I agree that on almost all current par 4's, this would be a moot point. But it could significantly (not slightly) enhance several par 5's. Though this is again my opinion...
Allurex
* Ace Member *
What I do when I find threads like this is just scroll and scroll until I find Chuck's posts. Everyone else is usually an idiot.
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People keep wanting to be more like ball golf, but can't find a good solution to rough situations...because we are different sports and there is no good solution! It's either too penalized or not enough. Let's just make all the rough big patches of briars.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Ball golf has been able to provide challenges for shots off the fairway when the property doesn't have trees by staging the cut height of the rough and using sand traps on courses considered links designs mostly in Europe. Disc golf hasn't been able to find much of an alternative to trees for off fairway challenges that are less punitive than immediate penalties for marked OB areas. Cattails, milkweed and particularly sumac patches do a good job as non-pricker brush that can alter shots once it's in the waist high to 8' height range but is only available naturally in spots.
While there's no need to duplicate ball golf, the idea here is to see what can be done to fill the less than 1 shot penalty gap on DG holes that have little foliage and no budget for adding it. Having those types of intermediate challenges adds to the granularity of scoring which is binary by nature and currently doesn't do a great job to differentiate shot quality as much as perhaps it could.
While there's no need to duplicate ball golf, the idea here is to see what can be done to fill the less than 1 shot penalty gap on DG holes that have little foliage and no budget for adding it. Having those types of intermediate challenges adds to the granularity of scoring which is binary by nature and currently doesn't do a great job to differentiate shot quality as much as perhaps it could.
I can see where watching a vid of Rock Creek will make you want to spice it up a bit on the front 9. It's really just 3 and 5 which are almost identical in length and wide open the whole way that give it this appearance of one huge big drive in a field after another. You do get a lot of wide open approaches but that's a skill and those that can be accurate from distance will score well on the front.
Both are just a huge drive in a wide open field followed by another bomb in a wide open field then an approach (unless you've got the arm to get there in two). They're not great holes but I bet there was scoring seperation. For most people that third approach shot is still far enough to create a challenge; and if you've got the arm to get anywhere close enough to putt your second shot is going to have to be huge and very accurate.
The other thing people overlook on holes like this is the advantage that goes to those who can BH roll. If you can throw a sick BH roller over 500' you've got the room and clear ground to get one out there; then your second shot is a long approach and not just another huge drive. Just ask Schwebby who deuced the 600' #17 on Cedarock with a BH roller.
Also, don't forget you were watching old folk. If you get top level pros out there they're definitely getting to those par 5's in two much more often. Also take note that Cedarock and Rock Creek are pretty much the only open courses we have anywhere around for hours; and the second is just a temp course.
Both are just a huge drive in a wide open field followed by another bomb in a wide open field then an approach (unless you've got the arm to get there in two). They're not great holes but I bet there was scoring seperation. For most people that third approach shot is still far enough to create a challenge; and if you've got the arm to get anywhere close enough to putt your second shot is going to have to be huge and very accurate.
The other thing people overlook on holes like this is the advantage that goes to those who can BH roll. If you can throw a sick BH roller over 500' you've got the room and clear ground to get one out there; then your second shot is a long approach and not just another huge drive. Just ask Schwebby who deuced the 600' #17 on Cedarock with a BH roller.
Also, don't forget you were watching old folk. If you get top level pros out there they're definitely getting to those par 5's in two much more often. Also take note that Cedarock and Rock Creek are pretty much the only open courses we have anywhere around for hours; and the second is just a temp course.
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