How I Would Change the PDGA

[shive]

to DukDukgolf:

You say, "I think an Am series will simply turn into the sandbagging Pro's that can afford to travel series. It would do nothing for grassroots or building from the bottom up."

I do not propose an Amateur Tour as a grassroots or bottom-up effort. I propose it only to do something for the Ams, to compensate for their ever-increasing subsidy of the Pros. They provide the bulk of our income, and deserve more attention.

My nomination for the most effective grassroots program recently instituted by the PDGA would be Kevin McCoy's league program. My chiefly grassroots proposals are a) to give meaningful compensation to TD's, b) to leave more money with local clubs and communities (ie, lower tournament fees) and c) to reach out to recreational players.

 

[Future_Primitive]

I don't think it's ever fair to complain that you're being paid out at retail prices just because the TD is able to get the discs at a lower price. There's markup in every business and expecting TDs to just pass along the wholesale price to the players is unrealistic.

I understand there is a cost associated with running a tourney, I am fine with paying $5.00 - $15.00 straight fee to cover said costs. I have my favorite discs, my bag is set, so now I am less enthused about entering a tourney for $25.00 - $45.00 and being forced to basically buy plastics and goods I dont want or need just for a chance to compete with fellow players. If this method stays par for the course in tourneys, I wont be renewing my PDGA membership next year as I wont be playing many tourneys anymore. Just my $.02 worth.

Now I see what JTacoma is dealing with, you keep making up arguments that dont exist so you can shoot down the nonexistent argument. :wall:

Please point to where I said anything at all about retail vs wholesale price. I would never expect to buy at wholesale which is why I never said such a statement. Feel free to actually read my previous post this time.

My complaint is with being forced to buy product at all when all I want to do is play in the tournament. I want to support a model that allows us golfers to get together in an organized event and compete. I shouldn't be forced to buy plastic I don't need or want just for a chance to play in the tournament. So if given the option I would much prefer to simply pay whatever the amount is to run the tournament so the TD can make some money and the event makes some money so everyone has a successful experience.

I enjoy the experience itself, I value meeting new people, playing new courses and seeing how I stack up against my fellow players. I don't value being forced to purchase unnecessary discs as the only access to the tournament experience.

 

[Future_Primitive]

I would much rather pay a straight $5.00 to $15.00 entry fee to enter the tourney as an AM. I would be very happy with NO player pack and with it being a Trophy Only event for the winner of my Division. I would be very happy and see a ton of VALUE in paying $5-$15 for an organized event with my fellow players and a chance to compete. I could go home with nothing having spent $5-$15 to enter and feel like I got a lot more VALUE out of my money than if I had spent $35 and went home with a player pack of useless goods.

A lot of players overlook the the value of playing. Many times a course is rented and shut down to the public. What is the value of playing disc golf on your favorite course and the park district wants insurance? What is the value of playing 2 rounds of tournament disc golf? I find value in that. I also find value in getting rated rounds. There's also value in the possibility of winning prizes and trophies. Personally I find an entire days worth of tournament disc golf as an excellent value even if I win no prizes. I can't think of too many organized activities that offer that kind of value.

:doh::wall:

We could really cut down on the # of posts if people took the time to read the post before rushing to argue against themselves.

 

[Dave242]

If people took the time to read the post before rushing to argue they would see that not every post is arguing.....some are actually agreeing. Brett starts his post by saying to you:

You are in the minority when it comes to playing trophy only.

It is pretty obvious that his "A lot of players overlook the value of playing" is targeted at "a lot of players".......and NOT you.

Woops.....I just added another post. I think you might think that is bad.

 

[Discette]

Peter

Thank you for serving on the BOD. Thank you for understanding the way to grow this sport is NOT to throw more resources at the top players, or to dress up the top events, but to encourage new players.


JTACOMA. I will be voting FOR Peter in an effort to vote AGAINST candidates like yourself. Many things you propose have already been tried before with little success.

....Another area which I see as needing improvement is the fact that most people drive by a NT without knowing what's going on. Look at Major US Golf tournaments, you know what is happening when you drive by one - and they have the disadvantage of having to be on their golf course! Many many disc golf courses are smack dab in the middle of the public, but we put minimal effort into advertising what we are - when there are people literally right there who could be interested (or more likely in our current state) turned off by what they see happening. In this way I totally support what Peter is saying that we need to support the TD's better, and empower them so they can do a better job. As far as specifics I think there's many ways to increase tournament visibility in the local communities, but I think the methods chosen are on a case-by-case basis and would be appropriate for that particular event. We have tons of creative people in this sport and we can find a way to make our events high-caliber.

Having a dressed up venue, only gives you a dressed up venue; it does not attract more spectators or PDGA members or make the event high caliber.


This has already been tried. For example, The Golden State Classic NT event was hosted at La Mirada from 2004-2008. It was run by the late Tim Selinske, who was a master promoter. He had the entire park decked out from end to end with banners and signs and flags. Everyone who was near La Mirada Park KNEW something big was going on that weekend. Tim had demonstrations for Guts and Freestyle and Distance. He paid for radio advertising and had a beer garden!! No one came. He booked a frisbee dog demonstration and at least several hundred people came out to the Golden State Classic that year; but only to ask "Where are the Frisbee dogs?" They didn't care about disc golf before, during or after. Once the dogs left, all the people left. And not one cared if Ken Climo or Dave Feldberg was in the lead. Tim also did all this production for the US Masters PDGA Major event that he hosted from 2000 to 2008.

So Tim spent this massive amount of time and energy and money and volunteer staff putting up banners and flags and paying for radio advertising and beer gardens and public disc demonstrations. No one except the players showed up then. No one except the players are going to show up now. Here it is nine years later and you are proposing tournament visibility is what we need to make our events high caliber. Tim proved you can wear the prettiest dress to the ball, but it doesn't make a difference if there is no one there to dance with you.

Also, the Memorial has always been a high visibility event at both the Vista and Fountain Hills venues. Although these parks are packed with disc golfers, 90% of the other park users don't have a clue what is going on....even with all the disc golf banners flying and the PDGA circus tent in attendance!


Again, I will be voting for Peter and any other candidates that are looking to step away from growing this sport from the top down.


Suzette Simons
California PDGA State Coordinator - South
PDGA Competition Committee Volunteer

 

[Dave242]

Great post Discette!

It is a bit of a paradox/conundrum though that the PDGA membership is made up primarily of tournament players with aspirations of excellence....both for personal competitive performance and for PDGA competitive performance. The majority of people who most agree with the seasoned perspectives of you and Peter are no longer members and can therefore not vote.

Peter, my vote for you can be bought for $75 - the membership I would need.

 

[Dave242]

How I Would Change the PDGA

1) The PDGA would provide meaningful benefits for tournament directors, and for state coordinators.

Free membership to TD's and (Assistant TDs too - maybe for B-Tiers and up) would be a really nice gesture.

IMO, the gesture is MUCH more important than the dollar amount. We all know that if we paid a TD and tournament staff even half of minimum wage for the work they put in to run an event, we would bankrupt the system.

Idea triggered by this post:

2. It rewards the John Biscoes of the world - guys that don't compete anymore but are great tournament directors and want to and continue to run events.

 

[Three Putt]

Great post Discette!

It is a bit of a paradox/conundrum though that the PDGA membership is made up primarily of tournament players with aspirations of excellence....both for personal competitive performance and for PDGA competitive performance. The majority of people who most agree with the seasoned perspectives of you and Peter are no longer members and can therefore not vote.

The turnover is how the same thing gets done over and over. JTacoma03 has ideas that I've heard repeated since the early 90's. He is new blood, ready to believe that pro disc golf will work. They are doomed to burn out and give way to the next generation who will do the same thing. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Having people willing to repeat all the mistakes the previous guy made is how the PDGA tour keeps going, though. :\

 

[Dana]

Interesting.

 

[Three Putt]

The scary thing I hear is this idea that we need to cater to a different type of player. The wide demographic of players is to me the A #1 thing we have in our favor. However, the wide demographic pulls in people of a socioeconomic status who might not look and act like the people you want in a promotional video. What I'm hearing is a sentiment that they are what is holding us back; they don't look right and give off a bad perception of who we are.

Guess what? They are who we are.

Disc golf was developed in this hippy-dippy 70's vacuum as a free sport. The free sport at this point is too far gone to come back; we have thousands of courses in public parks that are free to play. There is no way to change that at this point. Free to play; low cost for discs and the ability to actually find those discs laying around the park for free is going to attract some people you might not want on a promotional poster. That does not make them bad people. The sport has been built on the backs of a lot of people like that; rough around the edges guys who look terrible but would give you the dirty, sleeveless shirt off their back if they thought you needed it. Guys like that are responsible for a lot of the work that it took to get us here, and they make up a big portion of the numbers we have. They are not our problem.

Taking a path of disc golf eugenics and trying to make us seem like something we are not by running off a big portion of our already small numbers so we can conform to some image we need to try to turn the game into something it is not seems pretty foolish to me. I'd rather hang on to my rough and tumble compatriots and let the game be what it is.

 

[Dave242]

I do not see this idea fitting anywhere into Shive's or Sinclair's platform, but it is sort of along the lines of a few things mentioned here (and there is plenty of thread drift in this thread anyhow).

What has ever been thought of as far as having a structure that paid Professionals for actually earning their portion of their payout that is above and beyond the portion paid in by competitors they have beaten?

They rightfully earn their competitors' money by outperforming them. But, what have they done to earn any cash added to the purse?

This is something I have not thought through, so it is just harebrained brain-storming:
What about each player earning a "multiplier" for efforts in promoting the sponsor (ideally efforts that bring more eyeballs to the event and the sponsor). If they do nothing, they get a zero multiplier and therefore get none of the added cash (normally paid to them on the same payout curve as the competitors' money). If they do the agreed upon amount of promotion for the sponsor, they get a multiplier of 1 and get all the added cash they would normally get.

Any leftover cash would go to the charities of the sponsors' choosing - hopefully often the hosting club for course improvements.

 

[skottyb]

Well said Three Putt, you said it perfectly!

I believe the PDGA needs to be more progressive with getting courses into local communities. This is all done relatively by volunteers who NOTHING in return from the PDGA. More courses in more communities = greater exposure of the sport.

Of course this is shoveling out money and nothing is coming back in return, and since they have bills to pay like everyone else it isn't really an achievable goal at the time.

 

[shive]

History Repeating Itself

to Discette, Three Putt and Dave242:

Thanks for your posts.

It is beginning to seem to me that the people who agree most with me are those who have left the PDGA or who refuse to join because they do not share the PDGA's philosophies, for much the same reasons that I don't. True, they can't vote.

Nor should they. If the PDGA's philosophy works for its current membership, then they should just vote me out and get on with their plan. They have as much right to their opinion as I do.

I think of every election as an experiment. The best thing I can do is to state my position clearly and completely so members have a very clear idea of what they are getting, or rejecting. Although I haven't specifically mentioned it this campaign, I have always stood, above all, for communicating openly and honestly with the membership. That's what I'm doing on this thread, and this give and take of ideas is truly exciting to me.

And if, after all that, I go down in flames, it won't mean that I've wasted my time. It would only mean that there are a whole lot of disc golfers out there looking for an organization.

 

[Dave242]

I believe the PDGA needs to be more progressive with getting courses into local communities. This is all done relatively by volunteers who NOTHING in return from the PDGA. More courses in more communities = greater exposure of the sport.

I agree with this sentiment.....but HOW exactly can the PDGA be more progressive? What specific actions would the PDGA do?

If there was a good list of actions we/they could come up with, it might still take some amendments to the mission statement and/or constitution to facilitate those things happening.

 

[skottyb]

I agree with this sentiment.....but HOW exactly can the PDGA be more progressive? What specific actions would the PDGA do?

If there was a good list of actions we/they could come up with, it might still take some amendments to the mission statement and/or constitution to facilitate those things happening.

What they should do is the million dollar question and everyone has their opinion.

Sponsor "X" amount of courses a year by requesting courses designers/communities to submit "X" reasons why they deserve a course, kind of like a contract bid.

Have them label it with the PDGA name on tee signs, baskets, etc, so people know who is behind developing courses. Of course this is just a random thought off the top of my head right now but I believe more courses is the answer with quality designs for both the new and seasoned players.

 

[shive]

course development

to skottyb and others:

There are many things the PDGA does well. One is the implementation of its Innovation Grants, which often take the form of course development initiatives.

 

[sidewinder22]

There is no way to change that at this point. Free to play; low cost for discs and the ability to actually find those discs laying around the park for free is going to attract some people you might not want on a promotional poster. That does not make them bad people. The sport has been built on the backs of a lot of people like that; rough around the edges guys who look terrible but would give you the dirty, sleeveless shirt off their back if they thought you needed it. Guys like that are responsible for a lot of the work that it took to get us here, and they make up a big portion of the numbers we have. They are not our problem.

Some two-bit whack-job. Wears a cheap purple suit and make-up. He's not the problem. He's a nobody.

 

[onemilemore]

I agree with this sentiment.....but HOW exactly can the PDGA be more progressive? What specific actions would the PDGA do?

If there was a good list of actions we/they could come up with, it might still take some amendments to the mission statement and/or constitution to facilitate those things happening.

I don't remember if I mentioned this idea in this thread or another, so I'll say it again. The PDGA could give a hard dollar amount from each membership and allot it regionally to reward greater membership numbers. Those dollars could then be put toward local course development.

Taking this idea further, an idea might be to have PDGA-affiliated clubs, so that the PDGA would know where to funnel this money to.

I'll use my local area as an example: The San Diego Aces charge $20 for a yearly membership and has roughly 600 members. If it were PDGA-affiliated, you could give members two options: local and national membership. If they chose national, the fee would be higher and include a PDGA membership, which would have the PDGA giving x dollars back to the club for each membership.

So, let's say the PDGA gives $10 of every membership back to the club. (That's a high number, but take away a PDGA-stamped disc and make DiscGolfer Magazine online only and you save that money easily.) Now imagine 400 of the Aces members choose the national option. That's an extra $4000 coming back to the club specifically for course development. That's at least 18 baskets per year.

I think this would be an awesome way to get more courses in the ground and generate more memberships. It would take some compromise and some oversight of the local clubs, but I think the response would be big.

 

[Dave242]

It is beginning to seem to me that the people who agree most with me are those who have left the PDGA or who refuse to join because they do not share the PDGA's philosophies, for much the same reasons that I don't. True, they can't vote.

Nor should they. If the PDGA's philosophy works for its current membership, then they should just vote me out and get on with their plan. They have as much right to their opinion as I do.
.......
And if, after all that, I go down in flames, it won't mean that I've wasted my time. It would only mean that there are a whole lot of disc golfers out there looking for an organization.

I don't know if it is that simple. You seem to have a platform that aligns most strongly with portions of the PDGA's stated mission that highlighted below (I might be a little off, but this is my take on your platform).

If you and others are continually rejected based on your platform (and members are not joining or are leaving for similar reasons), are you suggesting that the mission statement would need to be re-written? Or a new organization started to accomplish those parts being under-emphasized?

There is a lot of blue below!

-----------------------------------

Vision Statement:
The PDGA is a membership organization dedicated to the promotion and sustainable growth of disc golf.
Mission Statement:
To develop disc golf into a globally-recognized competitive sport and recreational activity through:
• Player participation
• Tournament development
• Spectator participation
• Course development
• Rules and competitive standards
• Media and sponsor relations
• Public education and outreach
To sustain the growth of the organization, membership, and disc golf by means of:
• Financial stewardship
• Asset and resource management
• Membership support

 

[Discette]

...

Taking this idea further, an idea might be to have PDGA-affiliated clubs, so that the PDGA would know where to funnel this money to.

I'll use my local area as an example: The San Diego Aces charge $20 for a yearly membership and has roughly 600 members. If it were PDGA-affiliated, you could give members two options: local and national membership. If they chose national, the fee would be higher and include a PDGA membership, which would have the PDGA giving x dollars back to the club for each membership.

So, let's say the PDGA gives $10 of every membership back to the club. (That's a high number, but take away a PDGA-stamped disc and make DiscGolfer Magazine online only and you save that money easily.) Now imagine 400 of the Aces members choose the national option. That's an extra $4000 coming back to the club specifically for course development. That's at least 18 baskets per year.

I think this would be an awesome way to get more courses in the ground and generate more memberships. It would take some compromise and some oversight of the local clubs, but I think the response would be big.

Taking this idea further, an idea might be to have PDGA-affiliated clubs, so that the PDGA would know where to funnel this money to.

Here is the link to the PDGA Affiliate Club program in its 12th year. The PDGA already offers $5.00 off each PDGA membership for those signing up through their local club. As well as other offers from vendors. http://www.pdga.com/affiliate_club

By the way, So Cal DGA has been an active PDGA Affiliate club for many years. So Cal DGA has a very high percentage of active PDGA members. Socaldiscgolf.org