Tournament Profits

[dscmn]

There certainly are plenty of entitled players in every division, but across the board expecting added cash in your division when there isn't any real money coming from outside the sport is a little more egregious to me.

Isn't that the PDGA standard for B tiers and above? Do pros demand added cash in their division for C tiers too? Who specifically are you talking about making these demands? I've been playing a long time and I've never heard anyone make demands such as these.

Expecting to "win" a disc golf tournament when so few competitors exist and when many others are willing to compete without arbitrary protection from better players is more egregious to me.

 

[mashnut]

Again, I'm not saying it's wrong, both of the situations you mention are within the guidelines. I do believe though, that it is more entitled to expect that added cash that comes from either the TD's work or from other competitors than it is to attend an event and play with other people in your skill range as an amateur who's playing for fun not profit.

 

[dscmn]

Then your problem is with the TD who agrees to the sanctioning agreement, no?

Who's playing a disc golf tournament for profit? LOL.

 

[JC17393]

Isn't that the PDGA standard for B tiers and above? Do pros demand added cash in their division for C tiers too? Who specifically are you talking about making these demands? I've been playing a long time and I've never heard anyone make demands such as these.

Yes, it is.

I agree 100% with mashnut's post. But on the flip side of the required added cash coin, the TD does choose to sanction at a level where the money is required. If a TD doesn't want to or isn't able to raise enough outside sponsorship to meet the requirements, he is also under no obligation to sanction as a B or higher tier.

I've been to plenty of C-tiers over the years where the value was B-tier level, including plenty of added money. The TD only sanctioned as a C-tier so as to not have the pressure of coming up with a minimum amount. Whatever he was able to raise was what got added. Whatever he felt like rolling in from merch sales, he added. Otherwise he could cover his expenses or even a little more while still putting on a really good event that met all standards and expectations.

 

[mashnut]

Then your problem is with the TD who agrees to the sanctioning agreement, no?

No problem at all on my end. My original post was quoted out of context, and I guess I haven't done a good job of explaining it. I don't have a major issue with either side of what's being discussed here, I just disagreed with someone who claimed that there is more entitlement on the am side of things than the pro side.

 

[dscmn]

No problem at all on my end. My original post was quoted out of context, and I guess I haven't done a good job of explaining it. I don't have a major issue with either side of what's being discussed here, I just disagreed with someone who claimed that there is more entitlement on the am side of things than the pro side.

But I already fixed your mistaken notion.

 

[Karl]

I have been playing, volunteering, and running PDGA events since 2003. As the years went on I've educated myself to how disc golf events are run in other places. There area wide variety out there and regions vary. Being a big part of the ILL scene I've only scene this Am Scam once in those years. Being IL State Coordinator for 6 years I haven't seen it happen. Am Scam is way overblown and it's not happening often.

One thing I can't stand are amateur players who think they should get discs at the same price the tournament director or merch man got them for.

I'm may be in the same camp as you regarding your last sentence (the jury's still out for me), but technically pro players are getting cash 'at the same price the tournament director...got them for' - so why should it be any different for ams?

Karl

 

[dscmn]

I'm may be in the same camp as you regarding your last sentence (the jury's still out for me), but technically pro players are getting cash 'at the same price the tournament director...got them for' - so why should it be any different for ams?

Karl

AMs could/should be paid out in cash too. Until that's the case however, the tds/clubs deserve the pittance they get between the wholesale and retail of merchandise simply because it takes time and effort to order, store, distribute, catalog, etc. all the stuff. Otherwise it would be pooping on the tds/clubs, but that wouldn't surprise me in the least--from the overly entitled.

 

[kerplunk]

I have to say I agree with both sides, at least from what I understand. Mashnut et al. are correct in the aspect that the club/TD makes profit from Ams, the club/TD usually puts up the added $$ for pros, therefore the profit from the Ams basically goes to the pros. But I also agree with MTL that this is not necessarily the case, particularly where there are sponsors or where the club has other sources as income, like weekly or monthly minis. I think that in "no-profit" events the am profit goes back to the club and the club provides the extra $$ for pros, so in a way the ams are paying for the pro payout, although somewhat indirectly. However in for-profit events, which are seemingly becoming more common, I think most of the am profit goes into the pocket of the TD.

On a related note it bugs me how much clubs/TDs charge for plastic in tourney payouts. I was an active officer of the BCDC in Durham, NC for awhile so I know how much plastic costs wholesale. We usually charged a buck or two below market rate, but it seems lots of people charge above market rate (probably MSRP) for plastic in payouts, which is particularly not cool in a no-profit tourney.

And finally, I think you have to look at MTL kind of like Feldbeard: maybe not the most personable guy, but great for the game.

 

[dscmn]

If the pdga awards the winner of the pdga amateur world championships a solid gold polehole, is he still an amateur?

 

[jrawk]

quick question.. Just trying to understand the minimum added cash thing.

when raising donations for the minimum added cash in an A or B tier, are the sponsors donating their money to the TD/Club. Then the TD/Club determines how it's used? For instance, if the minimum is $500 and Business1 donates $800 and Business 2 donates $300, that donation is actually going to the TD/Club for using toward the tournament. So the TD/Club can determine how much of the total $1100 will be used for payout beyond the $500 minimum, correct? Lets say $900 of the $100 is added payout, so then the remaining $200, which is in TD/Club's control, can use that for expenses/profit, just as long as the $500 minimum is met?

 

[Karl]

AMs could/should be paid out in cash too. Until that's the case however, the tds/clubs deserve the pittance they get between the wholesale and retail of merchandise simply because it takes time and effort to order, store, distribute, catalog, etc. all the stuff. Otherwise it would be pooping on the tds/clubs, but that wouldn't surprise me in the least--from the overly entitled.

My contention is that Pros 'expecting' (and the PDGA stating that payouts for such should be) 100% is where the problem lay!

Either pay BOTH (AMs and Pros) at 100% of TD's purchase power...and yes, nick the club / TD (out of obtaining any vig)...
OR
Pay NEITHER (AMs and Pros) at 100%...letting them EACH pay for their OWN fair share of the expenses.

Karl

 

[JC17393]

quick question.. Just trying to understand the minimum added cash thing.

when raising donations for the minimum added cash in an A or B tier, are the sponsors donating their money to the TD/Club. Then the TD/Club determines how it's used? For instance, if the minimum is $500 and Business1 donates $800 and Business 2 donates $300, that donation is actually going to the TD/Club for using toward the tournament. So the TD/Club can determine how much of the total $1100 will be used for payout beyond the $500 minimum, correct? Lets say $900 of the $100 is added payout, so then the remaining $200, which is in TD/Club's control, can use that for expenses/profit, just as long as the $500 minimum is met?

I'd say yes. Unless the business/entity that is donating is doing so explicitly to pad the purse, I believe the TD/club is free to do with their donations what they wish. I think the club would be well within its rights to take that hypothetical $1100 in donated money, ear-mark $500 to meet the B-tier minimum for the pro purse then start covering expenses with the remaining $600. If expenses are covered and there's money left over, then by all means they could put that remainder into the pro purse or an ace pot or whatever they think might benefit the tournament. The club should at minimum try to break even on the event. If that means the precious pro purse is $100 or $150 lighter than it might otherwise have been in order to pay for scorecards, pencils, and signs, so be it.

The only act I would think was a bit disingenuous, and again this would entirely depend on how the businesses were approached for donations, would be if the club kept any part of the donations for non-tournament related things (course upkeep, club party, whatever). If the business was approached to sponsor an event, the money should go to the event. If a business is sponsoring the club, then the club is free to spend the money however they wish, including putting it into their tournament(s).

 

[Mr. America]

AMs could/should be paid out in cash too.

How can somebody be competing for money and still be considered "Am"? What you want is to do away from the whole Pro/Am label?

 

[dscmn]

My contention is that Pros 'expecting' (and the PDGA stating that payouts for such should be) 100% is where the problem lay!

Either pay BOTH (AMs and Pros) at 100% of TD's purchase power...and yes, nick the club / TD (out of obtaining any vig)...
OR
Pay NEITHER (AMs and Pros) at 100%...letting them EACH pay for their OWN fair share of the expenses.

Karl

I think we're in agreement. I would say however that it's not a chicken/egg thing, the pdga payout scale creates the expectation, not vice versa. I have and will continue to run non-sanctioned events where all competitors pay $20 with $3 taken out for ace and club, no one cared in the least. That's why payout expectations should be in the 80% to 90% range. I can honestly say I don't know one pro who would be against that. Especially if the event is for the club/course.

 

[dscmn]

How can somebody be competing for money and still be considered "Am"? What you want is to do away from the whole Pro/Am label?

Yes. It's devisive and unnecessary. Lebron James played basketball in the Olympics. The pros are tired of subsidizing the ams. Here's a lengthy response from a different thread:

How I would change the PDGA. Eliminate the PRO/AM distinction. Create two distinct types of tournament structures: divisional and open. The divisional structure will look much like a regular PDGA tournament today with divisions based on age or skill or both, left up to the discretion of the TD. The main difference would be an actual division (or two) above advanced, rather than an open "division." In the divisional structure competitors would accumulate points to gain an invitation to the divisional world championships. Competitors are always free to play "up" divisions.

Open tournaments would be just that, open to all competitors. Open tournaments would act as qualifiers for higher level events, culminating in the open world championships. Competitors would advance up through the ranks of a competitive system to achieve an invitation to this event. Perhaps the top 40-50% of the field in any particular tournament qualifies to advance to the next level (regionals, etc.). This satisfies those looking to disc golf as more of a serious, competitive sport.

Payout structures could be altered to better fit the new system. All competitors could be paid out in cash. If it's important to a competitor to retain true amateur status then payout could be made in merchandise. Payout structures could be reset in the more realistic 80-90% range to better compensate TDs. The "tour" would morph into a number of smaller mini-tours attracting a greater number of competitors.

In my opinion, this would provide each individual disc golfer with two distinct competitive outlets from which to choose. Everyone would be eligible to play in every single event, no need to restrict player options by needlessly calling them AM or PRO. A single competitor could win both the top-level divisional world championships and the open world championships in the same year. I don't believe this would add much of a strain on the organization to achieve. And finally, charge everyone the same price to join the PDGA for crying out loud.

 

[Karl]

I can just hope that the PDGA accepts a saner approach (towards this 100%+) stuff / semi-mandate and uses your template.

But IF we (the PDGA) HAVE to use the "AM / Pro" status thing - which is really stooopid (because neither is what they pretend to be) - then EITHER of my scenarios would foot the bill.

Karl

 

[dscmn]

Right now, PDGA amateurs are like porn stars who claim to be virgins because they only do ****.

 

[JC17393]

I think we're in agreement. I would say however that it's not a chicken/egg thing, the pdga payout scale creates the expectation, not vice versa. I have and will continue to run non-sanctioned events where all competitors pay $20 with $3 taken out for ace and club, no one cared in the least. That's why payout expectations should be in the 80% to 90% range. I can honestly say I don't know one pro who would be against that. Especially if the event is for the club/course.

Thing is, nothing in the PDGA rules and regulations disallows charging $20 and taking $3 out for ace and club. In fact, that might be one of the most misunderstood things about PDGA events (and frankly, a lot of disc golf tournaments in general). When the PDGA says that each division has to get 100%+ in return, it is not 100% of the gross entry fees, it is 100% of the net.

So that means that if every MA1 player at B-tier X pays $30, the PDGA does not require the TD to pay back a minimum of $30 per player in value. At most, the TD is required to pay back a minimum of $27 per player in value ($30 - $3 player fee). If the TD also wants to take another $2 per player as a club fee, or a course fee, or an insurance fee, or whatever, he's allowed. And in that case, he is only required to pay back $25 per player in value to achieve 100% return.

Same applies to the pro divisions at the same B-tier X. If 20 MPO pay $50 each and the total purse is $1400, that's exactly $500 added for a 155% payout. And the TD has all the player fees (20 X $3) covered and $40 towards miscellaneous expenses.

More events run this way than I think people realize.

 

[Three Putt]

I have been playing, volunteering, and running PDGA events since 2003. As the years went on I've educated myself to how disc golf events are run in other places. There area wide variety out there and regions vary. Being a big part of the ILL scene I've only scene this Am Scam once in those years. Being IL State Coordinator for 6 years I haven't seen it happen. Am Scam is way overblown and it's not happening often.

One thing I can't stand are amateur players who think they should get discs at the same price the tournament director or merch man got them for.

You came in with the DISContinuum guys though, didn't you? That club started right about the time I moved up there, and one of the big deals they made about how the DISContinuum events were going to be run was the fact that they were NOT going to AM Scam (which was actually the first time I'd heard that term.) That and having the event results submitted earlier than six months after the event. :\ If nobody in the area had been running the Am Scam before that, I'm not sure why DISContinuum was talking about it.

At any rate, DISContinuum is a good example of what good events can do in an area. The events that group was able to put together with IOS were very attractive to the Amateurs in Northern Illinois (even if Jay Reading hates them.) The event quality in the area had to ramp up in response to what DISContinuum was doing or people would stop going. It really was a kick in the pants to the whole scene, and what passed for a good event there in 2000 would not fly there now IMO.

I can't speak to Chicago before DISContinuum. I was in St. Louis. The Am Scam was exactly how we did things. The wholesale/retail differential covered our added cash for Open. We were not very good at getting sponsorship, and the Am Scam got us by. That is not how things are done in St, Louis any longer; they have developed the sponsorship necessary to run an A Tier without it.

As time goes on, the Am Scam might become less common as disc golf in general gets better at attracting sponsorship. It is a part of our history and I doubt it is completely gone, but it's probably not as common as it used to be.