Tournament Profits

[turbosteve]

While I agree that currently players don't put nearly enough value on the TDs time and effort creating a great tournament experience, I don't think the answer is to follow golf's model. Making it prohibitively expensive to play in events would almost completely eliminate the current amateur competition, and that would make it almost impossible to run any events for the "pros" without completely changing the structure of those events too.

You say "why should disc golf care about these golfers?", and I think that's the wrong way to go. Encouraging people to understand what goes into running a tournament and accepting that they shouldn't expect their money back every time they play is one thing, pushing out everyone who's not wealthy enough to play $300 events is just not in the spirit of disc golf. Your background is in a sport that has always catered to wealthy, upper class folks and that's just not what most people want from disc golf in my experience.

Where did he say entry fees for disc golf tourneys should be $300? He is saying we shouldn't worry about people who complain about spending any money on disc golf. I also don't like how the PDGA sells our sport short. I think the PDGA should rethink its marketing strategy.

 

[mashnut]

Where did he say entry fees for disc golf tourneys should be $300? He is saying we shouldn't worry about people who complain about spending any money on disc golf. I also don't like how the PDGA sells our sport short. I think the PDGA should rethink its marketing strategy.

He also implied that tournaments costing "pocket change" devalues the experience and contrasted that with golf tournaments costing $300. He's certainly at least saying he thinks tournaments should cost more than they do now. I disagree.

What is the PDGA's current marketing strategy? I don't see them doing a whole lot to market the sport outside of current players. I also don't think it's worth spending money on advertising to people who don't know or care what our sport is, sounds like a waste of money that won't actually bring any new players or revenue in.

 

[sidewinder22]

He also implied that tournaments costing "pocket change" devalues the experience and contrasted that with golf tournaments costing $300. He's certainly at least saying he thinks tournaments should cost more than they do now. I disagree.

What is the PDGA's current marketing strategy? I don't see them doing a whole lot to market the sport outside of current players. I also don't think it's worth spending money on advertising to people who don't know or care what our sport is, sounds like a waste of money that won't actually bring any new players or revenue in.

I believe he was saying 3 on 3 basketball tourneys are $300 per team or $100 per person, and basketball is free to play at a lot a places.

 

[scarpfish]

Still don't know why people on here keep intertwining a fee for use of a facility (or perhaps a lack thereof in most cases involving disc golf) versus a fee to enter a competition.

If someone is getting the two mixed regarding their own expenditures, and asking why they should pay $X to play in Y tournament at Z park when he can play it for free at any other time, then that person is probably not the competitive type to begin with.

 

[ScottyLove]

But even so, my player packs have the following:

Dri Fit shirt
Custom stamped Champion Disc.

The shirt costs me about $14 per. The disc costs me about $8 per. The vlaue on those is roughly $40 combined. $22 is the minimum I can remove from entry and $40 is the max. I will take probably around $30.

That's still a heck of a deal and then is added cash of $10 per player in the am field.

Welcome to the basics of how to run a good event. I'll be here forever.

And this is a tournament I would NEVER play in.

Around here, all of the entry fee is paid back out and usually more. The cost of the players pack is paid by club members raising monies so there is no need to "take probably around $30"... leaving on $10 for payout. I won $147 voucher in a 30 player Rec Division recently because there was no need to deduct anything off the entry fee to pay for discs/shirts that had already been paid for and to top it off, the $500 added cash was split among all division based on field size... with Rec getting the lion's share. It was a C-Tier and didn't require the monies to go into the Open division.

If the cost of the players pack has to be deducted from the entry fee, then that just means the folks putting on the thing have been negligent in fund raising efforts IMHO.

 

[mashnut]

And this is a tournament I would NEVER play in.

Around here, all of the entry fee is paid back out and usually more. The cost of the players pack is paid by club members raising monies so there is no need to "take probably around $30"... leaving on $10 for payout. I won $147 voucher in a 30 player Rec Division recently because there was no need to deduct anything off the entry fee to pay for discs/shirts that had already been paid for and to top it off, the $500 added cash was split among all division based on field size... with Rec getting the lion's share. It was a C-Tier and didn't require the monies to go into the Open division.

If the cost of the players pack has to be deducted from the entry fee, then that just means the folks putting on the thing have been negligent in fund raising efforts IMHO.

So as amateur tournament players, we deserve for someone to go out and volunteer their time raising money to give us stuff for playing in a tournament?

 

[NOStheBOSS]

And this is a tournament I would NEVER play in.

Around here, all of the entry fee is paid back out and usually more. The cost of the players pack is paid by club members raising monies so there is no need to "take probably around $30"... leaving on $10 for payout. I won $147 voucher in a 30 player Rec Division recently because there was no need to deduct anything off the entry fee to pay for discs/shirts that had already been paid for and to top it off, the $500 added cash was split among all division based on field size... with Rec getting the lion's share. It was a C-Tier and didn't require the monies to go into the Open division.

If the cost of the players pack has to be deducted from the entry fee, then that just means the folks putting on the thing have been negligent in fund raising efforts IMHO.

this is the entitlement that I absolutely hate

 

[DavidSauls]

this is the entitlement that I absolutely hate

No kiddin'. Suddenly, I feel a little sleazy for defending merch payouts in another thread.

 

[mashnut]

No kiddin'. Suddenly, I feel a little sleazy for defending merch payouts in another thread.

I was thinking the same thing. I don't have an issue with am payouts or the "am scam", but I also never expect tournament directors to put in tons of time and effort just so I can a little extra plastic for placing 11th.

 

[Matt B.]

And this is a tournament I would NEVER play in.

Around here, all of the entry fee is paid back out and usually more. The cost of the players pack is paid by club members raising monies so there is no need to "take probably around $30"... leaving on $10 for payout. I won $147 voucher in a 30 player Rec Division recently because there was no need to deduct anything off the entry fee to pay for discs/shirts that had already been paid for and to top it off, the $500 added cash was split among all division based on field size... with Rec getting the lion's share. It was a C-Tier and didn't require the monies to go into the Open division.

If the cost of the players pack has to be deducted from the entry fee, then that just means the folks putting on the thing have been negligent in fund raising efforts IMHO.

Kick rocks dood.

 

[Dave242]

No kiddin'. Suddenly, I feel a little sleazy for defending merch payouts in another thread.

I clicked his profile to verify for sure what I already knew....that we are dealing with a 14 year old and should cut a little slack here. I'm embarrassed to say that people who are my age (47) post like this Mr. Elam (either for serious or trolling).

Wow.

 

[sidewinder22]

$147 voucher for placing in Rec.

 

[Royal Hill]

I clicked his profile to verify for sure what I already knew....that we are dealing with a 14 year old and should cut a little slack here.
Wow.

Dave, you are right about cutting some slack due to age.

Yet, we can easily see a concept in action of how even the best meaning hard work can be taken for granted and as an expected so easily. Do something for an event three times and its "always". I've heard that you take your own children to the same vacation place three years, even not in a strict row, and they will later recall that "we always went there every year growing up".

Be careful with generosity. It makes you think twice doesn't it - say when you get a killer deal on t-shirts or something..then you contemplate adding in something more since you "have the extra cash".

watch out! You'll have to do it again next time even without the killer t-shirt deal.

 

[DavidSauls]

I guess I should say I have no problem with Ams receiving merch. Or liking to receive it. Or wanting to receive it. Once we get to demanding, though.....

 

[Three Putt]

And this is a tournament I would NEVER play in.

Around here, all of the entry fee is paid back out and usually more. The cost of the players pack is paid by club members raising monies so there is no need to "take probably around $30"... leaving on $10 for payout. I won $147 voucher in a 30 player Rec Division recently because there was no need to deduct anything off the entry fee to pay for discs/shirts that had already been paid for and to top it off, the $500 added cash was split among all division based on field size... with Rec getting the lion's share. It was a C-Tier and didn't require the monies to go into the Open division.

If the cost of the players pack has to be deducted from the entry fee, then that just means the folks putting on the thing have been negligent in fund raising efforts IMHO.

We ask for this, though. There are guys out there who throw WAAAYYY too much at players. They have good intentions, but you end up with people who think that you should win $150.00 playing Rec.

Russ Burns in this area is one of those guys. Great guy, I like him and he thinks he is doing the right thing. He runs events that throws TONS of stuff into the payout. He is running a disc golf business, though. He can carry the inventory and get the discount prices you need to do these sorts of things. The problem with Russ doing it is that all of a sudden that is the expectation. He sees it as raising the bar on events. I see it as pushing us into an unsustainable territory. Nobody should pay out a Rec player $150.00. Nobody should expect to win $150.00 playing in Rec. The fact that it is happening is crazy.

 

[Dave242]

This Russ Burns fellow probably sees it as growing participation in competitive DG.....and to an extent he has a point. But, it is probably drawing the professional sweepstakes competitors more so than the athletes the Sport of DG needs to grow.

 

[Royal Hill]

Insert some cultural proverb about Catching fish matching the bait you use.

It does seem that as time goes on in an area, the same nets are used in the same small pools, trying to catch the same fish.

Most involved in this process continue to think that this pool is where it is at, while they miss much of the ocean around them teeming with sealife. However, fish outside these usual pools, or those in these pools that have repeatedly not been caught - respond to different bait, and a much wider cast net.

 

[Three Putt]

I see it like this:

* PDGA was started as Pro only; the people who took over in the mid 80's were Pro's.

* Pro's are motivated by competition and being rewarded for doing well i.e. payout.

* Tournaments catered to the Pro's and were (and still are) largely judged on payout.

* As Am's were brought in, they were seen as future pro's and treated like pro's.

* Am disc golf develops as a payout-centered activity.

* Everybody wants to hold a "better than last year" or "better than the city down the road" event.

* When your events are judged by payouts, you make your events better by having bigger payouts.

* New players who don't know it was ever any different expect the bigger payouts.

* At some point, you pay a guy who has been playing less than two years $150.00 for finishing 3rd in Rec and he thinks that is the way it should be and you are a loser slacker if you run an event that doesn't do that.

It is the result of what we do. A Rec player should value disc golf. He should show up to play for trophies and maybe get a cheesy T-Shirt that is too small for him and be OK if he gets to have some pleasant competition on a good course. We don't have those guys. We have guys who expect to get paid. That is our fault.

 

[Three Putt]

This Russ Burns fellow probably sees it as growing participation in competitive DG.....and to an extent he has a point. But, it is probably drawing the professional sweepstakes competitors more so than the athletes the Sport of DG needs to grow.

Russ is a player. As a player he hated playing and getting a bag of merch that you didn't pick out as a prize. He started a business and has a huge disc inventory so he can push the payouts to the next level.

I was a TD handing out pre-made bags of discs. I also hated it. I hated that I had to throw so much merchandise at people. In the 90's we only had DX; have you ever tried to bag up a $250.00 merch prize made up of $8 DX discs? At that moment that Russ was dreaming of doing it bigger and better, I was thinking we needed to do it smaller and simpler.

Of course, the players like bigger and better. Russ has run me out of business. I can't get anybody to show up and play for trophies. They would rather wait for Russ to show up with the truck of merch. We could have a series of 6-8 events/year, but we have one. The one where Russ comes with the merch truck. That is what the players want.

 

[Royal Hill]

Hey three,

We have the smaller and simpler series you were likely aiming for around my region. We built our stuff from the ground up and we pushed in the direction of less is more and are having success. Incredible success. People we have never seen before are coming out and playing low cost (low input) low return (low output) conpetition event models.

Hopefully, each year we do,we will be building a culture centered more around the golf, and less on the stuff.

That being said, there are enough high cost (high input) high return (high output) events around too to satisfy those who are drawn to it, even if they have to get in their car and drive a bit.