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[Innova] Colossus
- Thread starter Kidd Mack
- Start date
Ender175
Eagle Member
Was expecting a much sharper rim than what it looks like in the profile picture.
Twmccoy
* Ace Member *
Gstar plastic isn't what I'd introduce a new disc in. It's not a great plastic. Champion or regular Star would be way better. And yeah, $20 is too much.
THUGNIFICENT763
Banned
That dome looks obnoxious to me.
BirdieMachine
Michael Moore Fan Club President
brandocommando9
Double Eagle Member
It doesn't even look super domey just a nice gradual dome.
It's listed as a pre-release fund raising disc so that's why it's priced higher than normal. And Innova is pushing gstar plastic so it makes sense to intro a new mold in a plastic they want people to try.
Personally, I really like gstar and star both -- gstar is really great for cold weather throwing but I have found it's also great in warm weather as well. This mold is interesting and one I'll try at some point for sure.
If Innova got involved with Marvel the way that Dynamic Discs did they would have a gold mine on their hands. Love the name but have absolutely no interest in a disc this fast.
SD86
Banned
Since GStar came out, Innova has introduced nearly all (if not all) high-speed discs in GStar plastic first. The Daedalus comes quickly to mind. Then Innova went and made sure to put out their existing high speed drivers out in GStar, such as the Boss, etc. Hopefully production runs of the Colossus will come out in Star and/or Champion plastic.
And I agree that $20 is steep, even if it is a fundraiser... Innova seems all-to-eager to forget that their exorbitant shipping rates of $6+has to be added to my totals when I consider buying something from their proshop. So this $20 combined with that steep shipping charge is too prohibitive for my poor wallet.
Twmccoy
* Ace Member *
Since GStar came out, Innova has introduced nearly all (if not all) high-speed discs in GStar plastic first. The Daedalus comes quickly to mind. Then Innova went and made sure to put out their existing high speed drivers out in GStar, such as the Boss, etc. Hopefully production runs of the Colossus will come out in Star and/or Champion plastic.
And I agree that $20 is steep, even if it is a fundraiser... Innova seems all-to-eager to forget that their exorbitant shipping rates of $6+has to be added to my totals when I consider buying something from their proshop. So this $20 combined with that steep shipping charge is too prohibitive for my poor wallet.
I've thrown a G-Star and a champion Daedalus. the Champion was far superior. Better glide and overall flight pattern. GStar seems too floppy and lacks glide.
That's completely been my experience. Not into G* at all anymore.
SD86
Banned
That's my story with the Thunderbird.
Definitely too soft/floppy unless it's cold. And even then I'm going to prefer Star to GStar...
SirBrucifer
Newbie
It's alot like the MVP Photon. So far anyway.
Ted Bratton
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2012
- Messages
- 1,499
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on disc history, design, or physics. I'm just bored. In my humble opinion...
The speed 13 design and marketing by Innova in late 2008 with the Champion Boss was real. If a new Boss and a new Destroyer (which has a narrower rim) are identical in stability, dome, weight, and so on then the Boss will fly a small amount farther because it is a little more aerodynamic. The boss slows down a little slower.
Why bother with a Destroyer? There are too many reasons. Maybe you have a relatively conservative psychology and take comfort in the popular, successful nature of the Destroyer. Maybe the rim is too wide for your hand. Maybe you throw them very fast very often and it's easier to find Destroyers that are overstable enough for you. One interesting reason might be that you prefer the slightly slower disc because the wider the rim of the disc, the more it tends to want to "stable out" at the end. It's easier to "straighten out" an overstable putter than a mid, a mid than a fairway driver, and so on. It's a little easier to keep a putter turned over than a mid if they are the same stability, because the wider rimmed midrange wants to fight out more later in the flight when it's gliding at lower speeds. If a new 175g Star Boss and a new 175g Star Destroyer are identical in stability and all other factors then the Boss will fly a small amount farther but it will also "stable out" a little more at the end which may or may not be a good thing. Boss or Destroyer? It's preference.
Blah blah anyway the PDGA has rules in place at the moment that effectively prevent a faster disc from being made, 13 is the apparent maximum. One parameter is that a disc can not be smaller than 21cm in diameter and the maximum permitted weight of a disc is proportionate to it's diameter and other things which is why most discs are 21cm in diameter and have a maximum permitted weight of about 175g. Another parameter being they don't allow a rim wider than 2.5cm. Using a wider rim allows a disc to be more aerodynamic relative to it's "stability". If a manufacturer is smart (they all appear to be very smart) then they try to design their discs to have qualities that increase their aerodynamic and gyroscopic nature like thinner flight plates, so that their driver flies as far as the PDGA allows. Many athletic people who disc golf, notably some young, experienced males who throw discs extremely fast want to buy durable, gripable, stiff (enough), heavy, and overstable drivers for some selection in their bag. Plastic disc golf discs cool differently resulting in different PLH, dome, etc. which causes one production run to fly significantly more or less overstable than the last so the manufacturer wants the average stability of their disc to be where their players want it. I'm sure they strive for ultimate consistency but this is the real world. Faster throwers want relatively more overstable discs, and slower throwers need relatively less overstable discs for the same looking line. The Champion Boss in late 2008 was the first development of a legitimate maximum speed (13) disc that was designed for pro players, specifically World Champion Dave Feldberg who throws very hard and very fast often.
There is another parameter to a disc that allows it to slow down faster or slower, it's "glide". No I don't mean the "glide rating", flight ratings are for newer players who buy a lot of discs they've never tested and don't know what to expect. Really I'm talking about the stability of a disc. Many people think "More overstable=more left", I don't think that way. I think "The more overstable a disc is, the quicker it wants to stable out into the ground." I think the more overstable a disc is, the faster it slows down and the less it glides. The more understable the disc is, the slower it slows down and the more it glides. More understable=more glide. Glide is not inherently good or bad, as for disc golf experienced players want some discs that glide more (for more understable shots) and some discs that glide less (for more overstable shots). I have a bag full of like 20 discs that range from "slow" to "fast" and also from "understable/high glide" to "overstable/low glide". For example if one can throw let's say 550 feet maximum with their overstable Boss and one steps up to a wide open, windless 600 foot hole there are many options. A few that come to mind are "lay up" to 500+ feet, try to throw that much faster than one has ever thrown, or throw a less overstable Boss which will have the same max speed but more glide and potentially more distance if you maximize the flight well enough. Obviously you will have to throw the less overstable Boss differently and you may find it less predictable and precise, but the extra glide will net you extra distance. The understable Boss flies farther than the overstable Boss. Glide/understability is so important for potential distance that a glidey midrange will fly farther than a very glideless (overstable) fairway driver, despite the fairway driver being considerably "faster" with a considerably wider rim. So why do pros and fast throwers often throw overstable discs for very long distances? Because they are sacrificing some distance for a measure of control. These dudes can throw 60, 70, 80, even 90+mph and you probably throw 40-60mph. It's easy enough to throw 600+ feet if you throw 90mph easily enough lol. Sometimes they do throw relatively (stability is relative to speed) understable drivers as hard as they can for various reasons, but not as often as overstable discs.
My point is, if you could somehow line up all of the 2.5cm rim width discs across brands with identical stability, surface texture, dome, weight, and so on then they would all be absolutely max speed relative to their stability regardless of whether they said "Cannon" or "NukeOS" on top. That NukeOS would have abnormally low PLH and that Cannon would have abnormally high PLH lol, but functionally they would be the same disc. The only way to make such a disc faster would be to make it more understable by lowering it's PLH, weight, whatever I'm no physicist...if it's faster than your Boss than it's more understable than your Boss. Your 2.5cm rimmed Boss, Quasar, DD2, Nuke, World, Rampage, whatever...is max speed. The "speed 14" King for example has a thinner Destroyer-like rim and definitely flies farther than your overstable Boss...but it's significantly more understable. The king is famous for being understable and therefore having a lot of glide. If your King and Boss were the same stability, your Boss would fly a little farther. As for the overmolding and the surface texture technology on the Missilen and Raketen I have no idea.
The Colossus is probably a smart move by Innova, if all of your competitors claim their discs are faster and your consumers actually believe them, then you have to compete on that battlefield right?
All of that is just my lamen opinion though, I'm not trying to give anyone advice. Just my opinion.
The speed 13 design and marketing by Innova in late 2008 with the Champion Boss was real. If a new Boss and a new Destroyer (which has a narrower rim) are identical in stability, dome, weight, and so on then the Boss will fly a small amount farther because it is a little more aerodynamic. The boss slows down a little slower.
Why bother with a Destroyer? There are too many reasons. Maybe you have a relatively conservative psychology and take comfort in the popular, successful nature of the Destroyer. Maybe the rim is too wide for your hand. Maybe you throw them very fast very often and it's easier to find Destroyers that are overstable enough for you. One interesting reason might be that you prefer the slightly slower disc because the wider the rim of the disc, the more it tends to want to "stable out" at the end. It's easier to "straighten out" an overstable putter than a mid, a mid than a fairway driver, and so on. It's a little easier to keep a putter turned over than a mid if they are the same stability, because the wider rimmed midrange wants to fight out more later in the flight when it's gliding at lower speeds. If a new 175g Star Boss and a new 175g Star Destroyer are identical in stability and all other factors then the Boss will fly a small amount farther but it will also "stable out" a little more at the end which may or may not be a good thing. Boss or Destroyer? It's preference.
Blah blah anyway the PDGA has rules in place at the moment that effectively prevent a faster disc from being made, 13 is the apparent maximum. One parameter is that a disc can not be smaller than 21cm in diameter and the maximum permitted weight of a disc is proportionate to it's diameter and other things which is why most discs are 21cm in diameter and have a maximum permitted weight of about 175g. Another parameter being they don't allow a rim wider than 2.5cm. Using a wider rim allows a disc to be more aerodynamic relative to it's "stability". If a manufacturer is smart (they all appear to be very smart) then they try to design their discs to have qualities that increase their aerodynamic and gyroscopic nature like thinner flight plates, so that their driver flies as far as the PDGA allows. Many athletic people who disc golf, notably some young, experienced males who throw discs extremely fast want to buy durable, gripable, stiff (enough), heavy, and overstable drivers for some selection in their bag. Plastic disc golf discs cool differently resulting in different PLH, dome, etc. which causes one production run to fly significantly more or less overstable than the last so the manufacturer wants the average stability of their disc to be where their players want it. I'm sure they strive for ultimate consistency but this is the real world. Faster throwers want relatively more overstable discs, and slower throwers need relatively less overstable discs for the same looking line. The Champion Boss in late 2008 was the first development of a legitimate maximum speed (13) disc that was designed for pro players, specifically World Champion Dave Feldberg who throws very hard and very fast often.
There is another parameter to a disc that allows it to slow down faster or slower, it's "glide". No I don't mean the "glide rating", flight ratings are for newer players who buy a lot of discs they've never tested and don't know what to expect. Really I'm talking about the stability of a disc. Many people think "More overstable=more left", I don't think that way. I think "The more overstable a disc is, the quicker it wants to stable out into the ground." I think the more overstable a disc is, the faster it slows down and the less it glides. The more understable the disc is, the slower it slows down and the more it glides. More understable=more glide. Glide is not inherently good or bad, as for disc golf experienced players want some discs that glide more (for more understable shots) and some discs that glide less (for more overstable shots). I have a bag full of like 20 discs that range from "slow" to "fast" and also from "understable/high glide" to "overstable/low glide". For example if one can throw let's say 550 feet maximum with their overstable Boss and one steps up to a wide open, windless 600 foot hole there are many options. A few that come to mind are "lay up" to 500+ feet, try to throw that much faster than one has ever thrown, or throw a less overstable Boss which will have the same max speed but more glide and potentially more distance if you maximize the flight well enough. Obviously you will have to throw the less overstable Boss differently and you may find it less predictable and precise, but the extra glide will net you extra distance. The understable Boss flies farther than the overstable Boss. Glide/understability is so important for potential distance that a glidey midrange will fly farther than a very glideless (overstable) fairway driver, despite the fairway driver being considerably "faster" with a considerably wider rim. So why do pros and fast throwers often throw overstable discs for very long distances? Because they are sacrificing some distance for a measure of control. These dudes can throw 60, 70, 80, even 90+mph and you probably throw 40-60mph. It's easy enough to throw 600+ feet if you throw 90mph easily enough lol. Sometimes they do throw relatively (stability is relative to speed) understable drivers as hard as they can for various reasons, but not as often as overstable discs.
My point is, if you could somehow line up all of the 2.5cm rim width discs across brands with identical stability, surface texture, dome, weight, and so on then they would all be absolutely max speed relative to their stability regardless of whether they said "Cannon" or "NukeOS" on top. That NukeOS would have abnormally low PLH and that Cannon would have abnormally high PLH lol, but functionally they would be the same disc. The only way to make such a disc faster would be to make it more understable by lowering it's PLH, weight, whatever I'm no physicist...if it's faster than your Boss than it's more understable than your Boss. Your 2.5cm rimmed Boss, Quasar, DD2, Nuke, World, Rampage, whatever...is max speed. The "speed 14" King for example has a thinner Destroyer-like rim and definitely flies farther than your overstable Boss...but it's significantly more understable. The king is famous for being understable and therefore having a lot of glide. If your King and Boss were the same stability, your Boss would fly a little farther. As for the overmolding and the surface texture technology on the Missilen and Raketen I have no idea.
The Colossus is probably a smart move by Innova, if all of your competitors claim their discs are faster and your consumers actually believe them, then you have to compete on that battlefield right?
All of that is just my lamen opinion though, I'm not trying to give anyone advice. Just my opinion.
pjhayes7
Double Eagle Member
I read all of that and agree with it all I think. Forgot what you said at the beginning by the end. JK. Speed 13 or 14 or 50, all that matters is that it is the maximum allowed by the PDGA for rim width.
Is this even at the max rim width? I thought it was bigger like Prometheus but dont want to look up measurements
pjhayes7
Double Eagle Member
Yeah, I guess you are right. Thought it was 2.5, but it is 2.6. So is the Prometheus a speed 16 then? Too much rim for my hands.
Twmccoy
* Ace Member *
I think the Cannon and Rampage have 2.6 CM rims. they're wider than anything else I've thrown.
PDGA says 2.5, but I'm not convinced the PDGA specs are 100% accurate.
Questatement
Double Eagle Member
Speed 14/15???
Just dropped Innova speeds 10 & 11 out of the bag due to 6 week long form issues as evidenced by 2/3 Wraith drives ending up inside of 350'. Speed 9 is already 330' and unless I stretch that out to 375', 10's & 11's will stay in a box in the garage.
In the meantime, makes room for a lot of cool slower speed stuff.
Just dropped Innova speeds 10 & 11 out of the bag due to 6 week long form issues as evidenced by 2/3 Wraith drives ending up inside of 350'. Speed 9 is already 330' and unless I stretch that out to 375', 10's & 11's will stay in a box in the garage.
In the meantime, makes room for a lot of cool slower speed stuff.
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