krupicka
Double Eagle Member
Translation: Pro players complaining that they got beat by an Am.
-
Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)
2018 Competition Rules Changes
- Thread starter krupicka
- Start date
Translation: Pro players complaining that they got beat by an Am.
I believe a much simpler approach to addressing this supposed issue of non-members "poaching" cash would be to tighten membership requirements to play in tournaments. Right now it's required to be a current member to play in an A-tier. Why not extend that requirement to the pro divisions of B-tiers, or a similar step?
Got my best laugh of the day when I read that one!
Ps: Yes, I believe the whole "pro / am" thing is a big bunch of bull shark.
kerplunk
Double Eagle Member
For all the people worried about the hypothetical of a $25 pro payout, have you ever actually seen a $25 pro payout? Most pro entry fees are pretty high ($50+), and the pro payout structure is pretty steep, so I don't think a $25 pro payout is ever likely to happen. I'm not saying I agree with the changes, I just don't think this hypothetical is realistic.
Of course, I could be completely wrong and just stuck my foot in my mouth.
Of course, I could be completely wrong and just stuck my foot in my mouth.
I wonder if they also complained about Amateur members boosting the pro purses with their entries? I mean, all of the ams playing pro can't be cashing, can they?
I'm less impressed now than I was when I was merely speculating on why they're doing this.
brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
Our local points series usually has one or two of the nine events sanctioned for insurance purposes. The entry fee for the Open division is $25.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
mmm...shoe leather.
there are lots of c-tiers around with entry fees well under $50. Since last cash generally amounts to your entry fee back there are also plenty of payouts of less than $50. At the B tier I ran 2 weeks ago last cash was $60 but got split four ways.
kerplunk
Double Eagle Member
Even in this situation any pro payout is likely to be more than $25, assuming the entire entry goes to the purse, but point taken.
mmm...shoe leather.
there are lots of c-tiers around with entry fees well under $50. Since last cash generally amounts to your entry fee back there are also plenty of payouts of less than $50. At the B tier I ran 2 weeks ago last cash was $60 but got split four ways.
I've played a lot of C-tiers in my day and pro entry was rarely less than $50, but that may be due to where I have lived. I never considered a split purse, that is a great point.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
I think I have played 4 and run 2 this year that were $40 or less with 2 of those being $20 and $25. Definitely differs from area to area. I will be running a $50 C tier in December but it's a golf course event with greens fees raising entry.
ILUVSMGS18
Just Another Disc Hoarder
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2014
- Messages
- 2,478
My local area has 3-5 people that I would consider Pro-level. As a result there is usually at least one MA1 guy playing MPO and doesn't have to turn Pro should they cash under the old rule. I say that C-Tiers should be exempted from this new rule, so that small areas (locally our tourneies never sell out) can have Ams play Pro and still be able to take merch instead of cash to stay Am. Or have some Rating cap say 875-900 and under can take merch but those over the limit have to take cash.
Updated results and payout info available the next weekend? We must not play the same events.
Not joking, pretty much every event I've played in the results were up by Monday, and in probably 85-90% of them, the first round is in before the second round starts. But I didn't think about other TDs who wouldn't be as on the ball
Ah, yeah, that wouldn't be helpful. Perhaps it should be standard practice now to include winnings in the results for Open divisions and have them updated within three days or so?
I will also add that one silver lining of this rule is, among the sandbagging complaints, there are going to be a ton of people playing their rating in MA1, so hopefully MA2 and MA3 and, dare I say, MA4 become a bit more appropriate in terms of ratings.
bnbanbury
Eagle Member
In this case you are incorrect. I have been to a dozen tournaments where last cash is this in this range. Links for reference:
https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/31078#MA1
https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/31067#MPO
https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/32722#MPO
That's just from this season. More like this from every other season I've played.
bwgort
Birdie Member
For the life of me, I can't understand the rationale for having TDs garnish player winnings after they have won them instead of requiring the players to be PDGA current up front. It makes no sense, and it will subject TDs to harassment by non-current players when they don't receive a payout. It's an inevitable and avoidable result.
_MTL_
Flippy Flopper
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2008
- Messages
- 3,514
• Amateur player complaints (and a BOD request) concerning a player winning an Amateur Worlds title despite previously accepting cash in a Professional division, in a PDGA-sanctioned event, prior to becoming a PDGA member.
This is a concern about amateurism and has nothing to do with these changes.
• Amateur player and Tournament Director complaints about non-members jumping back and forth and "poaching" both cash in Professional divisions and merchandise in Amateur divisions.
This is certainly an issue. However, the solution is to have pros require membership to play.
• Professional player complaints about non-members and Amateur members taking winnings out of the Pro divisions purses.
Um, beat them?
• Tournament Director complaints about having to come up with large quantities of merchandise to payout Amateurs in Pro divisions.
The only legit issue that directly correlates to this change. Some very small clubs / TDs doing things on their own may only be able to purchase $1,000 in retail based on $1,000 in expected amateur payout. Then three ams play open, and the event needs $1,400 in payout. For large events / large clubs, this isn't an issue. But in smaller events where ams are more likely to play up and cash, this can be a nightmare scenario for a small club.
This is a concern about amateurism and has nothing to do with these changes.
• Amateur player and Tournament Director complaints about non-members jumping back and forth and "poaching" both cash in Professional divisions and merchandise in Amateur divisions.
This is certainly an issue. However, the solution is to have pros require membership to play.
• Professional player complaints about non-members and Amateur members taking winnings out of the Pro divisions purses.
Um, beat them?
• Tournament Director complaints about having to come up with large quantities of merchandise to payout Amateurs in Pro divisions.
The only legit issue that directly correlates to this change. Some very small clubs / TDs doing things on their own may only be able to purchase $1,000 in retail based on $1,000 in expected amateur payout. Then three ams play open, and the event needs $1,400 in payout. For large events / large clubs, this isn't an issue. But in smaller events where ams are more likely to play up and cash, this can be a nightmare scenario for a small club.
krupicka
Double Eagle Member
Actually the first does. By requiring membership for Pros taking cash, the PDGA can track it. But to make such a drastic change for something that happened only once is ridiculous.
Simple, TD gets address, buys gift card from Marshall Street and sends to Am that cashed. All ams and am/pro's cashing at events does is clear out that old inventory that you weren't selling.
I dont see why pro's have much say, they arent driving the sport, growth, still is all grass roots. Ams and Recreational players introducing new players to the sport. The more discs they have the more they pass out or loan to friends. There are a lot of nice pro's out there, but 3 really nice courses of 3 skill levels in a low density disc golf area grows the sport far more than Paul winning 4 worlds titles.
Focus should be on the Ams, unfortunately, to be on a BOD you have to be known, and johny noob hyzer doesnt know enough to get elected and then defend the true growth in the sport, the unknown nameless rec player.
I see your point and while the solution I am about to propose brings with it a whole host of other issues, there is a solution; use an online vendor for the payout. As hellbound can attest (he was the TD of the tournament I played in where they did this), all of the payout was handled in the form of gift certificates from discgolfcenter.com, with no plastic available on site from the club. Now, yes, this brings issues of the club making less/no money from payout (no clue how this actually works) and puts more work on the front end for TDs with having to set everything up, it is an option.
JRW III
Double Eagle Member
True.
Would rather have seen the rule leave it to the option of the TD. Many different tournaments with different goals and set ups. Would have been better to leave it up to the TD to decide what is best for his tournament.
