Mandos Gone Wild

[ThrowaEnvy]

Damn autocorrect and I was looking at the diagram wrong haha. Nevermind I will just work now...

 

[F. Howl]

As a fan of those yellow, corrugated-plastic, arrow signs you get at the hardware store, I like to throw down an occasional mandy or three per safari layout. Thankful for this thread, because I thought I knew what needed knowing. I gotta brush up...

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

Citing the rule (emphasis on the relevant part):
804.2B
A throw has missed a mandatory if, from the direction of the previous lie, it completely crosses a mandatory line and comes to rest without coming back across the line (a throw or sequence of throws that crosses the line in both directions is considered not to have crossed the line).

It makes no difference how the disc arrived at its location, if it lies on the away side of the mando line, the mando still needs to be made.

This is correct.
You play your lie, but you do not gain any advantage your lie does not inherently have, in this case, a valid mandatory pass.
Players are to 'ignore' the actual throw and focus on its end result, the lie.

 

[Steve West]

...
Players are to 'ignore' the actual throw and focus on its end result, the lie.

Uh, no, not for the mando rule. It does matter how the disc got to where it is.

 

[kenjiac]

Mandatories are not something that only have to be navigated once. They must be navigated correctly every time they fall between the lie and the target.

JC in the OP you are correct that in his scenario the mandatory must be passed on the correct side. What I'm stating that you posted that was incorrect is that it has to be passed every time. See my 2 shot examples cited from the PDGA Q&A. The 2nd shots cross the mando on the bad side.
I'm not debating on whether i think this is appropriate. I agree that the mando purpose is to avoid a certain danger or route and you should have to pass it correctly each time but the rules are not written that way.

 

[kenjiac]

Citing the rule (emphasis on the relevant part):
804.2B
A throw has missed a mandatory if, from the direction of the previous lie, it completely crosses a mandatory line and comes to rest without coming back across the line (a throw or sequence of throws that crosses the line in both directions is considered not to have crossed the line).

It makes no difference how the disc arrived at its location, if it lies on the away side of the mando line, the mando still needs to be made.

This is correct.
You play your lie, but you do not gain any advantage your lie does not inherently have, in this case, a valid mandatory pass.
Players are to 'ignore' the actual throw and focus on its end result, the lie.

Cydisc post is incorrect. A disc that passes the correct side of a mando, then hits a tree and gets kicked backwards across the bad side of the mando, the next shot may be thrown across the bad side of the mando.

Like my above post states i don't agree with it but that is how the rules are written.

 

[_MTL_]

Mandos are such a complete headache and waste of time.

Just don't design a crappy / unsafe hole and there isn't a need for one.

 

[kenjiac]

Mandos are such a complete headache and waste of time.

Just don't design a crappy / unsafe hole and there isn't a need for one.

Too bad we all are not given free reigns on the property where we design courses. You make it so simple.

 

[_MTL_]

Too bad we all are not given free reigns on the property where we design courses. You make it so simple.

Honestly, if you are designing a course and it has safety concerns and they will only limit you to a certain area that has that concern, you shouldn't have a course there.

The thing no one seems to understand about Mandos in terms of safety:

They only work when followed properly. I would say 50% of non tournament golfers won't follow them out of ignorance of the rules. And then about 10% of people who know it exists won't follow it because they don't care or because they are throwing "hey man try this" kind of shots.

Even if every single person follows them, there is no way to account for human error and poor throws.

 

[kenjiac]

Honestly, if you are designing a course and it has safety concerns and they will only limit you to a certain area that has that concern, you shouldn't have a course there.

The thing no one seems to understand about Mandos in terms of safety:

They only work when followed properly. I would say 50% of non tournament golfers won't follow them out of ignorance of the rules. And then about 10% of people who know it exists won't follow it because they don't care or because they are throwing "hey man try this" kind of shots.

Even if every single person follows them, there is no way to account for human error and poor throws.

As a designer I totally understand the point your making. Mandos won't be followed by casual who don't know better. And there is always the occasional shanked shot. That still doesn't mean we should never have them or that a hole is crappy because it uses one. Sometimes they are not for safety but to force a certain shot the designer is wanting players to throw.

 

[Three Putt]

As a designer I totally understand the point your making. Mandos won't be followed by casual who don't know better. And there is always the occasional shanked shot. That still doesn't mean we should never have them or that a hole is crappy because it uses one. Sometimes they are not for safety but to force a certain shot the designer is wanting players to throw.

I played a course last year that had a mando that I think was there to keep you from throwing in the road to the right, but the way it was set up made it a really tight "thread the needle shot" between two trees that made me throw a turnover shot around the left tree that made the mando...and ended up in the road. :|

 

[_MTL_]

As a designer I totally understand the point your making. Mandos won't be followed by casual who don't know better. And there is always the occasional shanked shot. That still doesn't mean we should never have them or that a hole is crappy because it uses one. Sometimes they are not for safety but to force a certain shot the designer is wanting players to throw.

Unfortunately for every hole 7 at USDGC where a mando made what would be a boring hole into a good one, there are 100 that are just complete jokes

 

[Casey 1988]

Just want to add that I find the "string" theory idiotic and it is one of the things that I'm going to try to change as a member of the rules committee. It contradicts the intention of the mandatory rule to allow for any throws to cross the mandatory line. The purpose of the mandatory it to prevent players from throwing through a certain area. It shouldn't matter that the player passed it correctly once already if the player is given a second opportunity to do so.

Right now the rules for Mandatory's sits as to how the Director of a PDGA tournament, runner of a PDGA League, or league that uses the Exact PDGA though not PDGA League is how the rules apply to the Mando, the String theory applies to how they word the mandatory in the tournament or League rules.

I say thanks for trying to drop that and make the rule so each time a person is behind the mandatory area they have to throw in the mandatory area even if they should have gone though the mandatory throw area in the first time.

The other odd option would be to give a penalty for hitting the mandatory on the first try even if they went through the mandatory but came back on the other side during the throw of hitting the mandatory. That is a Double Jeopardy thing that needs to get fixed.

This Double Jeopardy needs to be cleared up as Our local tournaments made this rule that if you came back through the wrong side of the mandatory having cleared it the first time you got a penalty and had to throw from the penalty box. I got this oops as it was possible when missing the one Mandatory From a marked tree and had to do a provisional on the throw calling it both a penalty and throwing from the spot I landed to save time not calling out the director for this incident. Found out it was a penalty for the disc making the mandatory but wind/other tree pushing the disc back out the non mandatory side.

 

[Casey 1988]

Unfortunately for every hole 7 at USDGC where a mando made what would be a boring hole into a good one, there are 100 that are just complete jokes

I agree some are jokes like the Triple Mando right in front of the tee box on a hole that is already a tight tunnel shot and making it tighter tunnel box right out of the gate, 90% would have done a tunnel shot anyhow so why put the Triple Mandatory there.

I do like the pillars on the hole as there were trees in the area where they used to putt so if the tournament wanted to have the same level of difficulty for the hole they needed the pillars to quickly get the same result as most trees can take a long time to grow to that big size yet can be wiped out in a storm or die off. I remember there being trees in that spot of that one hole when they showed old photos back in the 2000's of near dead trees, tall Stumps, and a healthy one now gone from a more recent storm.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

Uh, no, not for the mando rule. It does matter how the disc got to where it is.

You mean in this specific instance or in general?
Bring light to darkness by explaining.

 

[peabody]

Two ways to look at this.
A. Your disc passes on the correct side of the mando. You have negatted the mando line. It is no longer a mando line. You are free to continue on a path towards the basket no matter where the disc ends up.
B. There is danger to other golfers if you throw on the wrong side of the mando. So, no matter if your disc makes the mando but ends up crossing the mando line, for safety reasons you still have to throw to the correct side of the mando. This makes the dam string tie a knot around the mando. (half-hitch?)

I wish the rules committed would address this once and for all.

 

[ILUVSMGS18]

As a designer I totally understand the point your making. Mandos won't be followed by casual who don't know better. And there is always the occasional shanked shot. That still doesn't mean we should never have them or that a hole is crappy because it uses one. Sometimes they are not for safety but to force a certain shot the designer is wanting players to throw.

I know there are certain holes up here where a mando would force the shot the hole was designed to require. Unfortunately no one wants to implement them for "fear of player pushback". Most of them are FH hyzer/BH turnover shots where there is a ridiculous OH line, that completely ignores the fairway.

 

[Steve West]

You mean in this specific instance or in general?
Bring light to darkness by explaining.

In general. The whole point of the mando rule is to restrict the path the disc takes, so what happens while it is flying matters.

 

[Steve West]

Two ways to look at this.
A. Your disc passes on the correct side of the mando. You have negatted the mando line. It is no longer a mando line. You are free to continue on a path towards the basket no matter where the disc ends up.
B. There is danger to other golfers if you throw on the wrong side of the mando. So, no matter if your disc makes the mando but ends up crossing the mando line, for safety reasons you still have to throw to the correct side of the mando. This makes the dam string tie a knot around the mando. (half-hitch?)

I wish the rules committed would address this once and for all.

Would you be open to having two different rules? One for A, one for B.

An example of A. would be a pole way off-line which the disc must go around, with the purpose being to turn a one-drive hole into a two-drive hole.

An example of B. would be to say the disc must never fly on the parking lot side of a light pole.

All of the confusion in the mando rule is a result of conflating these two ways to look at this. Every time the rule has been adjusted to pick one view or the other, incompatible elements of the other view have snuck in.

 

[Casey 1988]

Right now the rules for Mandatory's sits as to how the Director of a PDGA tournament, runner of a PDGA League, or league that uses the Exact PDGA though not PDGA League is how the rules apply to the Mando, the String theory applies to how they word the mandatory in the tournament or League rules.

I say thanks for trying to drop that and make the rule so each time a person is behind the mandatory area they have to throw in the mandatory area even if they should have gone though the mandatory throw area in the first time.

The other odd option would be to give a penalty for hitting the mandatory on the first try even if they went through the mandatory but came back on the other side during the throw of hitting the mandatory. That is a Double Jeopardy thing that needs to get fixed.

This Double Jeopardy needs to be cleared up as Our local tournaments made this rule that if you came back through the wrong side of the mandatory having cleared it the first time you got a penalty and had to throw from the penalty box. I got this oops as it was possible when missing the one Mandatory From a marked tree and had to do a provisional on the throw calling it both a penalty and throwing from the spot I landed to save time not calling out the director for this incident. Found out it was a penalty for the disc making the mandatory but wind/other tree pushing the disc back out the non mandatory side.

The Double Jeopardy On the Local Out of Town Course that make the next shot go around a Big Cottonwood tree as there was an open shot to the left side of tree that one could long putt, I did the long putt before the mandatory was made for tournaments. I shaved an entire shot off my normal score of 5 on a par 4, 515 foot hole, hole 7. I discovered the tight gap when I realized I was a good out of tight situations and tight holes naturally. The Double Jepordy is making the mandatory but hitting ether a branch of the big tree or another small tree or bush that pushes you back the wrong way and you have to make the mandatory again with a penalty becuase due to the wording of the hole you went the wrong way on the mandatory. I think later we fixed the rule to say: If you made the Manatory the first time on the throw but get bounced back behind the mandatory no matter what you have to re throw without a penalty <--(new part) and make the mandatory. This cleared that up when I had the mistake in 2006 or 2007 at a PDGA C tier or B tier tournament on that Course.

Now I think the gap closed up and the tree is still there but the whole left side is now a wall of plants/trees after a flood of 2011 did a number on anyone living right next to the Missouri River, New growth of Cottonwood trees and other plants that need a flood to grow helped that.