Mandos Gone Wild

[peabody]

Hmm. Mando A and Mando B. I suppose it could work but would probably be just as confusing.
We have a hole that is a dogleg left with a mando tree on the corner. As a Mando B ruled hole the mando line runs 90 degrees from the teepad line which puts it running up the left side of the fairway toward the basket. That means if the disc hits the basket and veers left it could go over the imaginary extended mando line. This is totally messed up.
I say stick with A and have OB on dangerous holes.
If they dont want you in a certain areas make it OB.

 

[cheesethin]

You mean in this specific instance or in general?
Bring light to darkness by explaining.

The mando rules have directionality built in to them.

804.02 Prohibited Routes
B. A throw has missed a mandatory if, from the direction of the previous lie, it completely crosses a mandatory line and comes to rest without coming back across the line (a throw or sequence of throws that crosses the line in both directions is considered not to have crossed the line).

So it matters from which side the mando line is crossed.

Before the 2019 update the rules said.

from the direction of the tee

So the directionality of a mando was permanently set for any particular hole. But now, since it is in relation to the previous lie, it is entirely possible, if unlikely in practice, to throw past a mando on the good side, then throw backwards past the mando on the bad side and be deemed to have missed the mando.

 

[peabody]

"A throw or sequence of throws" would indicate that until the hole is completed the mando line remains in place.(from the direction of the tee)
So on my short par 3 -90- degree hole with mando on the corner I could have made the mando and be parked but miss the putt and roll over the extended mando line? Even though the basket is 100 feet from the corner?

 

[cheesethin]

"A throw or sequence of throws" would indicate that until the hole is completed the mando line remains in place.(from the direction of the tee)
So on my short par 3 -90- degree hole with mando on the corner I could have made the mando and be parked but miss the putt and roll over the extended mando line? Even though the basket is 100 feet from the corner?

If I understand you correctly, then yes. If the Mando line is at 90° to the tee (the default when no physical line marked), then on your example hole the Mando line extends near the basket and, yes, it can be missed.

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[kenjiac]

I know there are certain holes up here where a mando would force the shot the hole was designed to require. Unfortunately no one wants to implement them for "fear of player pushback". Most of them are FH hyzer/BH turnover shots where there is a ridiculous OH line, that completely ignores the fairway.

Sometimes its ok to allow the unconventional line or the risk reward shot. I can't bomb overhands so i wouldn't look to that line. But i will throw a roller at a wall to get under some branches , jump to the green and ignore the opening designed in the hole (hole8@J-Park). Also I love to watch Simon throw some Simon lines!

 

[kenjiac]

This is correct.
You play your lie, but you do not gain any advantage your lie does not inherently have, in this case, a valid mandatory pass.
Players are to 'ignore' the actual throw and focus on its end result, the lie.

Uh, no, not for the mando rule. It does matter how the disc got to where it is.

You mean in this specific instance or in general?
Bring light to darkness by explaining.

Per PDGA rules currently the blue line may throw their 2nd shot on the left of mando and the red line must throw their 2nd shot on the right. Same lie different way it got there.

 

[Karl]

"A throw or sequence of throws" would indicate that until the hole is completed the mando line remains in place.(from the direction of the tee)
So on my short par 3 -90- degree hole with mando on the corner I could have made the mando and be parked but miss the putt and roll over the extended mando line? Even though the basket is 100 feet from the corner?

Taking this scenario "a little further", if your 90 is say 100 (or so) and you got a REALLY fortuitous tree bounce, is your "ace" now negated by having a lie that is "on the 'wrong' side of the line"?

 

[peabody]

If I understand you correctly, then yes. If the Mando line is at 90° to the tee (the default when no physical line marked), then on your example hole the Mando line extends near the basket and, yes, it can be missed.

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Then this rule is stupid. So if we move the basket to the left just over the extended 90 degree mando line , a hole in one or any subsequent throw at the basket results in a penalty?
You will never hole out.

 

[peabody]

Taking this scenario "a little further", if your 90 is say 100 (or so) and you got a REALLY fortuitous tree bounce, is your "ace" now negated by having a lie that is "on the 'wrong' side of the line"?

This is why I am saying the rule should read " once you pass the mando then the mando line no longer exists".

 

[kenjiac]

This is why I am saying the rule should read " once you pass the mando then the mando line no longer exists".

I think this is the reason why the rules is how it is now. If you pass on the good side of a mando then cross from the beyond the mando backwards across the bad side there is no penalty. You may throw your next shot without having to navigate the good side of the mando again. See my pic above and apply it to your 90 degree dogleg.

 

[peabody]

I think this is the reason why the rules is how it is now. If you pass on the good side of a mando then cross from the beyond the mando backwards across the bad side there is no penalty. You may throw your next shot without having to navigate the good side of the mando again. See my pic above and apply it to your 90 degree dogleg.

Yeah, "from the direction of the previous lie" has to mean a straight line and not a cut roll around or a deflection off of an object.
In other words it is impossible to to cross a mando line from the opposite direction.

 

[cheesethin]

Then this rule is stupid. So if we move the basket to the left just over the extended 90 degree mando line , a hole in one or any subsequent throw at the basket results in a penalty?

You will never hole out.

One solution is to mark the Mando line at an appropriate angle. Say 45°, so splitting the 90° corner in half.

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[JC17393]

One solution is to mark the Mando line at an appropriate angle. Say 45°, so splitting the 90° corner in half.

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Great point. The perpendicular line is the default if no line is marked, but a TD or course designer can mark the line in any direction they see fit. If it's a hairpin type hole, they can draw the line so it splits the space between the tee and the basket. Then can even shade it more toward the tee if there's concern that an approach to the basket could cross it.

I believe that the rule book should not be expected to solve every scenario, especially those that can be addressed much more cleanly and easily with the design of the hole/course itself.

 

[cheesethin]

Great point.

I had an email convo with the rules committee a while back and it was Steve or Conrad who made this point to me.


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[peabody]

Ok. We've all chimed in. We've read the rule book. Is there one correct interpretation of the rule?
Mando is the correct flight around an object.
Mando line is a 90 degree line from previous lie on the opposite side of the mando and can only be crossed from the direction of the previous lie.
That is what 804.02B states.
This tells me the string theory is correct.
If I make the mando then the mando line disappears.
Just asking, at my next pdga tournament am I going to get in trouble?

 

[DavidSauls]

Ok. We've all chimed in. We've read the rule book. Is there one correct interpretation of the rule?
Mando is the correct flight around an object.
Mando line is a 90 degree line from previous lie on the opposite side of the mando and can only be crossed from the direction of the previous lie.
That is what 804.02B states.
This tells me the string theory is correct.
If I make the mando then the mando line disappears.
Just asking, at my next pdga tournament am I going to get in trouble?

Does it disappear?

The mando rule doesn't say much about making a mando---just what constitutes missing a mando (crossing the mando line). I don't see anything about successfully passing it, and thus erasing the line.

 

[kenjiac]

The mando line does not disappear. If you cross on the good side hit a tree and get kicked backwards still on the good side the mando line is still there and needs to be navigated correctly on the next shot.

 

[peabody]

Does it disappear?
.

I assume it does if the mando is made. The string scenario(QA-MAN-1)seems simple enough.
They do need more clarification on what constitutes a successful throw around a mando.

 

[peabody]

The mando line does not disappear. If you cross on the good side hit a tree and get kicked backwards still on the good side the mando line is still there and needs to be navigated correctly on the next shot.

Yeah I know that but that throw has not made the mando. I'm talking about a throw that makes the mando.

 

[cheesethin]

Per PDGA rules currently the blue line may throw their 2nd shot on the left of mando and the red line must throw their 2nd shot on the right. Same lie different way it got there.

Interestingly, if you change the tree bounce in your picture to where the first shot lands, then make a second shot backwards, the red line is OK, but the blue line has then missed the mando as it crossed the line from the direction of the previous lie.