Straight & Flat Swing Plane Does Not Exist!

[deyo7]

1. Yes, flows straight back from apex.
2. Yes, this is how it flows straight back with body out of the way of backswing while moving into shot.
3. Both.

4. For "straight" or right to left hyzer.
5. With a true pendulum backswing/Feldy style its just supinated/external rotation to the top of the backswing so disc plane. Everything gets flattened out/less rotation when you don't bend the elbow or the less you bend the elbow. This why Feldy so consistent/player of the decade, less moving parts.

Nice job making sense of and numbering my question(s!).

Helpful clarification on q5, thank you. So if I want to follow this KISS principle, this would be the way to go. So I suppose I'm also only doing an "out to in to out" thing to the degree that the elbow bends during lag transition of weight shift as well. But it's not something to worry about other than to ensure top of backswing is directly opposite of apex, which ought to be slightly left of body (from behind view) as I turn hips and get body out of way to create space... if that makes sense.

Thank you, sir.

 

[deyo7]

Man, I'm a convert. Played again tonight with mostly great success. I finally understand what the windmill drill is about now. This is the pendulum effect. My legs are more naturally involved. I feel dumb that that didn't click until working through this thread and from reading form thread discussion with this video:

I had been practicing windmill prethrow then accidentally did this in real backswing during throw...decided to run with it... flew well. Someday the windmill will be everyone's real backswing.

 

[RFrance]

It took me a while to wrap my head around the pendulum concept. I finally got it when I starting thinking of "feeling the weight of the disc" correctly. In the past, I had thought you felt the weight of the disc as it started forward, kind of like a g force on a roller coaster. Then I realized that you need to feel the weight of the disc as soon as you pick it up in your hand! I could then feel it as I went through the swing and felt it as an object under the influence of forces. It was then natural for me to swing it like a pendulum and feel the rhythm. Now I understand the ball on a string concept as well.

I like what Mike Austen says at 2:45 in this discussion "Instead of dragging it through, you're swinging it through."

 

[sidewinder22]

Yep, feel the weight in the hand as soon as you pick it up.


Another timely vid:

 

[RFrance]

It's just awesome how when I finally understand the next basic concept there is so much more revealed in your videos, HUBs, SP's, SC's, and others. Once you realize that there are no cheat codes to jump ahead to the next level but just patience; rewatching/rereading; and lots of thoughtful practice until it finally clicks and then things get a lot easier.

Yep, feel the weight in the hand as soon as you pick it up.


Another timely vid:

 

[RFrance]

I came across these two graphic descriptions of a rotating plane for the swing which I assume is the another way to visualize the tilted twirl star burst.

This is Mike Dunaway https://youtu.be/a6QxyU27gGo?t=190.

And Rory McIlroy's Rotating swing plane.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looping & Rotating Pendulum:

 

[slowplastic]

And Rory McIlroy's Rotating swing plane.

That's such a good visualization of the precession of the spine/axis during the throw, which I've mentioned a few times but not often because it can be an abstract concept when described in words. This video is a much easier way to see it.

 

[drk_evns]

Looping & Rotating Pendulum:

Stride is dead straight too.

 

[dizzyj]

While doing a more pendulum swing (I certainly do a horizontal swing) how do you keep the disc from releasing at an extreme hyzer? I've been working on a horizontal swing with my wrist in a handshake position to keep the nose down. Would I need to adjust my wrist position at all to keep a nose down flight?

 

[sidewinder22]

While doing a more pendulum swing (I certainly do a horizontal swing) how do you keep the disc from releasing at an extreme hyzer? I've been working on a horizontal swing with my wrist in a handshake position to keep the nose down. Would I need to adjust my wrist position at all to keep a nose down flight?

When you rise up on the front leg the swing plane shallows out the pendulum going forward and the thumb is what controls the release angle at the moment of release. I change my balance to change the swing plane/release angle rather than the wrist, but I think Linus in last link does change his wrist angle.
https://www.adamyounggolf.com/low-point-and-parametric-acceleration/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HssJQD1rRo#t=3m55s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj1POFhjq7g#t=2m56s

 

[slowplastic]

While doing a more pendulum swing (I certainly do a horizontal swing) how do you keep the disc from releasing at an extreme hyzer? I've been working on a horizontal swing with my wrist in a handshake position to keep the nose down. Would I need to adjust my wrist position at all to keep a nose down flight?

If you aren't forward to the front leg enough with the release point out in front of your body I don't think that it'll quite sync up right. Things get pulled back to your intended hit point at a certain position of the throw, so if you are getting early releases or your arm is really getting pinned to your chest or something then it could be hard to not release on unintended hyzers.

For me it kind of feels like the back of the disc, opposite of my hand as I'm swinging that last bit, becomes the front/nose and it pops down through the hit. If I don't get to that position to make it happen then I won't get a clean nose down release.

Comparatively the horizontal/flat swing with a wrist down position feels like you're orienting the leading edge of the disc down as it rips out of your hand.

 

[T-Birdz]

I just dont get it. Haha. Feeling so stupid reading this thread every day Can someone post a throw when this is happening and one exampel of when it is not? I think i need to se what we are not talking about to understand


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

 

[SonicGuy]

I had a really random thought as I was driving away from field practice. I took a really sharp turn at speed and hit the gas perfectly to accelerate out of the turn.

This seems analogous to the disc golf swing. If you accelerate too early your "car" will get to the turn and lose all of its momentum fighting to hang on. Or even worse go off the shoulder! (early release) But if you accelerate half way through the turn, after the "apex", you can hang on to all of that acceleration and propel yourself onto the straight away.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

I had a really random thought as I was driving away from field practice. I took a really sharp turn at speed and hit the gas perfectly to accelerate out of the turn.

This seems analogous to the disc golf swing. If you accelerate too early your "car" will get to the turn and lose all of its momentum fighting to hang on. Or even worse go off the shoulder! (early release) But if you accelerate half way through the turn, after the "apex", you can hang on to all of that acceleration and propel yourself onto the straight away.

Sounds perfect... though I would change it just a bit to say coming in hot and having steering too hard into the curve skidding out as early release and going too wide off the shoulder = grip lock.

I did kinda on my own when i first came to this forum to correct my form questions, my grip locks had a lot to do with starting too fast, decelerating through what should have been the hit and then getting the rip in what should have been the follow through.

So... yeah analogy still works but both early release and grip lock are results of too much initial velocity/effort.

:thmbup:

 

[RFrance]

I had a really random thought as I was driving away from field practice. I took a really sharp turn at speed and hit the gas perfectly to accelerate out of the turn.

This seems analogous to the disc golf swing. If you accelerate too early your "car" will get to the turn and lose all of its momentum fighting to hang on. Or even worse go off the shoulder! (early release) But if you accelerate half way through the turn, after the "apex", you can hang on to all of that acceleration and propel yourself onto the straight away.

Others have had the same thoughts. This is from DGR down at the bottom of the first page https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24903http://. Lots of interesting concepts in that classic thread.

The: The Myth of Disc Pivot
•	
Post by Blake_T » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:10 am 


to make a comparison to something other than disc golf:
the pacing of the path of the point on the disc is a lot like making a high speed turn in a car.
if you enter the turn too quickly (without control of the car's weight) you will skid and hit 
the wall (aka the understeer will pull you out). your goal is to enter the turn slow, exit the
turn fast.

 

[deyo7]

Follow Up

Would you please take me through your thought process of why in this video you demonstrated how when braced and rear foot everts behind that shoulder in the follow through remained INTERNALLY rotated? Whereas I believe in first video, "dingle arm, flat swing does not exist," you discussed external rotation with follow through as way of natural and safe release, I believe.

I had a few rounds where I was absolutely crushing, 50-80ft farther than normal but then I lost the feeling. I've rewatched these videos and revisited windmill and backward bowl feeling and I'm certain that I have been externally rotating the shoulder prematurely. I've been giving the Ricky high five way early, which causes a loss of that late and fast tip of the whip/sling of the disc. Shoulder lean and athletic tilt while focusing on internal rotation seems to put me back into what I hope will be good position to get the magic back.

I rewatched some pro footage and I see the Sepo (thrower in "tilted" gif, right?) seems to keep his shoulder internally rotated, maybe neutral, but thumb seems to finish down. Feldberg also keeps shoulder internally rotated and thumb down in finish. Whereas Ricky and others externally rotate thumb up in the follow through. Is that indicative of type of shot, style, body type or other?

Is it safe to try get body in position to hold that internal rotation of the shoulder longer?

Does that make sense? Thank you, as always.

 

[sidewinder22]

Would you please take me through your thought process of why in this video you demonstrated how when braced and rear foot everts behind that shoulder in the follow through remained INTERNALLY rotated? Whereas I believe in first video, "dingle arm, flat swing does not exist," you discussed external rotation with follow through as way of natural and safe release, I believe.

I had a few rounds where I was absolutely crushing, 50-80ft farther than normal but then I lost the feeling. I've rewatched these videos and revisited windmill and backward bowl feeling and I'm certain that I have been externally rotating the shoulder prematurely. I've been giving the Ricky high five way early, which causes a loss of that late and fast tip of the whip/sling of the disc. Shoulder lean and athletic tilt while focusing on internal rotation seems to put me back into what I hope will be good position to get the magic back.

I rewatched some pro footage and I see the Sepo (thrower in "tilted" gif, right?) seems to keep his shoulder internally rotated, maybe neutral, but thumb seems to finish down. Feldberg also keeps shoulder internally rotated and thumb down in finish. Whereas Ricky and others externally rotate thumb up in the follow through. Is that indicative of type of shot, style, body type or other?

Is it safe to try get body in position to hold that internal rotation of the shoulder longer?

Does that make sense? Thank you, as always.

I think it depends on wether your arm finishes above or below the shoulders. The arm can not follow thru/abduct horizontally all the way around on plane with the shoulders or if you do you will stop the arm short jamming up and popping the humerus outward of socket instead of rotating the humerus around in socket one direction or the other to allow the hand to follow thru/decelerate with more range of motion.

 

[UhhNegative]

Deyo I don't know the answer to your question, but check out these videos. I'm not aware of any video shot at a higher FPS than this series of short videos from 2015. Makes it way easier to see the small motions at/during release which is nearly impossible in a typical video shot at a normal FPS.


Looks like Paul doesn't really supinate or pronate through release on his backhands. His bicep tendons (maybe just the loose muscle/fat) bounce slightly supinated after release. I'm guessing the force of the release of the disc dissipates a lot of the force of the shot. Only problem is you have to have everything else set up well to actually focus all of that energy into the disc rather than through the arm. Better form = less injuries and further distance!



Paige looks very similar to how Paul releases. You even see the same bicep bounce upwards.


Drew Gibson looks like he supinates a lot more through release. Looks more painful to me.


KJ pronates through the finish more, but you still see the bicep jump upwards/supination. And has a sweet huck face.


Will release similar to KJ. I've always thought his throw looked a little bit "roundy" and you can see how far behind his body the disc goes on the reachback.


This Ricky vid is interesting. It's only forehand but in the first throw he pronates through release then quickly goes back to palm up. He probably doesn't even know he pronates through release as I believe he preaches to keep the palm up.

 

[deyo7]

Deyo I don't know the answer to your question, but check out these videos. I'm not aware of any video shot at a higher FPS than this series of short videos from 2015. Makes it way easier to see the small motions at/during release which is nearly impossible in a typical video shot at a normal FPS.


Looks like Paul doesn't really supinate or pronate through release on his backhands. His bicep tendons (maybe just the loose muscle/fat) bounce slightly supinated after release. I'm guessing the force of the release of the disc dissipates a lot of the force of the shot. Only problem is you have to have everything else set up well to actually focus all of that energy into the disc rather than through the arm. Better form = less injuries and further distance!



Paige looks very similar to how Paul releases. You even see the same bicep bounce upwards.


Drew Gibson looks like he supinates a lot more through release. Looks more painful to me.


KJ pronates through the finish more, but you still see the bicep jump upwards/supination. And has a sweet huck face.


Will release similar to KJ. I've always thought his throw looked a little bit "roundy" and you can see how far behind his body the disc goes on the reachback.


This Ricky vid is interesting. It's only forehand but in the first throw he pronates through release then quickly goes back to palm up. He probably doesn't even know he pronates through release as I believe he preaches to keep the palm up.

Nice call with those videos. Really interesting to watch the angles that they pretty much all to a certain degree put on the disc. You can see really well how Paige manipulates it, doing exactly what SW talks about in the "Flat Swing does not Exist" and "Tilted Twirl" vids. That is, she externally rotates shoulder/supinates hand during backswing, then goes back to internal rotation just before release. Also interesting that she was carrying the disc like Sepo in that pronated position, allowing it to dangle, before the external rotation in backswing.

I think, when trying to throw this way, my body is naturally wants to work more like Paul and Paiges most of the way through but then it wants to supinate to a greater degree late in the follow through behind back. Regardless, right at the disc release I believe there's a natural release/external rotation that has to happen even if I feel like I'm pronating and continuing to internally rotate through. Which I think is the same thing you're pointing out, with the bicep bounce. It's the safe release of the hammer, like in SWs aforementioned vids.

SO SW22, to clarify, was it intentional that you were demonstrating the internal rotation all the way through the follow through in the "Tilted Twirl" vs how in "Dingle - Flat Does note Exist" you talked about the external rotation in follow through with Ricky high five?
Or is the difference inconsequential, with one being you were just talking about safe release and what happens in follow through and you're making different point in Tilted for example ... Maybe Ricky was finishing higher, for example.

Like, starting around 5.45 in "Tilted" were you simply trying to demonstrate that when you're braced and you make the proper linear move forward, that it should send your arm up and away from your center. That is the momentum should carry your arm forward in such a manner... Or does your arm always naturally internally rotate in follow through? Both/and etc?