Straight & Flat Swing Plane Does Not Exist!

[timothy42b]

Here's another one of Will, it has a really interesting rhythm to it:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CfAglkPjkAP/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

That is freaky. His upper arm is at 90 in the backswing before his toe touches down. But as he touches, he continues to rotate away as his arm swings forward until in line with his shoulders - it is at 180 before it bends. Then as he rotates forward, his elbow bends and disc heads for the pocket.

I hadn't figured out how to do slo mo on Instagram but now I see both videos of Will show the same thing. There is a point in the backswing where the upper arm is straight in line with his shoulders - 180 not 90. I should send this to the S&T people. <smiley>

 

[Brychanus]

Interesting, looks like he's moving through the frequent "walk past the disc" sequence in transition and proceed to wind up further out more like a "wide rail". The sequence does look a little different in the backswing but the motion collapses back into textbook downswing. Will try to look at him side by side with others when I get a chance.

 

[Brychanus]

Shoulder injury I think, but I don't know the details.

Oops, that's right, here's an older Ultiworld article
https://discgolf.ultiworld.com/livewire/schusterick-reveals-shoulder-injury/

He had neck scars from earlier surgery for cystic acne but I can't find any report about his neck related to disc golf.

 

[Hampejo]

What is your take on his x-step?

 

[seedlings]

Will's x-step and form has some similarities to Simon except for that extra arm movement swinging the disc back.

 

[Sheep]

If I remember correctly, Will lived here at the time he changed to this form.

He had a shoulder injury that took him out of playing for a good 6+ months and he had to redo his form a bit and this is what it came to.
His old form was so clean, but this new form gave him pretty decent power still.

Never really been my favorite player (local drama), but can respect his ability to throw a disc.

 

[sidewinder22]

Will's form was near perfect before the shoulder injury circa 2015.

Not a big fan of his form since then, seems to be compensating for the injury.

 

[sidewinder22]

Some interesting nuggets in here with John Erickson.
"Trying to swing on plane will destroy your swing."
"The head is not the center of the swing. The head goes where it goes, so just forgot about keeping the head still"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3uVbhQIq2k#t=17m10s

 

[Sheep]

Not a big fan of his form since then, seems to be compensating for the injury.

I think so.

His form before just was magical.

Oh that's hole 17 on cedar hill.

Been a while since i've watched that.
But an odd note on his plant foot in the throw.
I don't think anyone actually pops their foot around like that.


As for his new form, no biggie there, he's practically stopped playing for the most part other than some random C-Tiers.

 

[Sheep]

"The head is not the center of the swing. The head goes where it goes, so just forgot about keeping the head still"

I'd throw a caveat in here on this though.

We dont' want to try and keep our "head still"

I think the best way to describe it is to keep your head "neutral."

This is a ball golf disc golf issue that ties into the same mechanics for both, and about the same results for both when you use poor head movements.

A neutral head allows for your body to stay in rhythm.

However, there is one key thing that all of creation shares.
The body follows the head. This is why in wrestling, you cannot grab head gear, but if I sprawl on your shoot and put my hands on your head vs your shoulders, your face goes to the matt and your body follows, vs if I hit your shoulders, you can drive through me and fall at your own pace.

So it's important for us to not "lead" the swing with our head, there is plenty of time to see the ball/disc later in the swing.
But the old adage of keep your head still doesn't allow you to flow properly as it makes you to ridged.

So, I say "keep your head relaxed and neutral."

Leading with your head will outright stop other muscle groups from working together in harmony for starters. And it throws your body out of alignment.
In ball golf, you'll drop your rear shoulder (generally) and either hit it up in the air, or you'll smack the ground way before the ball not getting a clean strike. Your head leading the shot throws your shoulders out of alignment and your center out of alignment.

In disc golf it does really similar things, but from what I can also tell is it really encourages you to "muscle" the shot way harder and your body sort of shuts down out of the throw and that momentum created from the body throw just turns into the arm throw, and your neck muscles and shoulders muscles get score.

 

[Brychanus]

I noticed that Will Schusterick has seemed to change up his style recently, particularly in his backswing:
See this recent Instagram post:

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CfhWPB3jnK2/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=


Given that Will already had one of the best strokes in the game, why do you think he switched it up? What advantage is to be gained with the exaggerated figure 8 style as opposed to a more straight-ish backswing?

Will's new upper body action there looks like it would probably increase the "spray" potential of his shots with that large lateral backswing move.

Compare to this angle on Paul:


And Old Will linked above in the rear-of-tee view:

Will's form was near perfect before the shoulder injury circa 2015.

Not a big fan of his form since then, seems to be compensating for the injury.

Paul and Old Will both maintained that backswing load with compact posture & a strong brace against the rear leg/foot (Inside Swing Drill). Will's new one looks like he can get a load in the backswing, but it looks like it'd be pretty tough to get a consistent trajectory. I noticed that he was spraying a bit more in a couple rounds I saw since he'd come back and chalked it up to him being less practiced, but now that I see this form change it really sticks out.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'd throw a caveat in here on this though.

We dont' want to try and keep our "head still"

I think the best way to describe it is to keep your head "neutral."

This is a ball golf disc golf issue that ties into the same mechanics for both, and about the same results for both when you use poor head movements.

A neutral head allows for your body to stay in rhythm.

However, there is one key thing that all of creation shares.
The body follows the head. This is why in wrestling, you cannot grab head gear, but if I sprawl on your shoot and put my hands on your head vs your shoulders, your face goes to the matt and your body follows, vs if I hit your shoulders, you can drive through me and fall at your own pace.

So it's important for us to not "lead" the swing with our head, there is plenty of time to see the ball/disc later in the swing.
But the old adage of keep your head still doesn't allow you to flow properly as it makes you to ridged.

So, I say "keep your head relaxed and neutral."

Leading with your head will outright stop other muscle groups from working together in harmony for starters. And it throws your body out of alignment.
In ball golf, you'll drop your rear shoulder (generally) and either hit it up in the air, or you'll smack the ground way before the ball not getting a clean strike. Your head leading the shot throws your shoulders out of alignment and your center out of alignment.

In disc golf it does really similar things, but from what I can also tell is it really encourages you to "muscle" the shot way harder and your body sort of shuts down out of the throw and that momentum created from the body throw just turns into the arm throw, and your neck muscles and shoulders muscles get score.

Neutral is good, or balanced. What you are describing with wrestling is steering the head from an external force/person. This can happen in a swing when you tilt off balance from your center of gravity, but turning the head doesn't affect balance, so when people talk about "leading with head" what are they really talking about... tilting or turning? Is either really bad? When you go to walk/run you start the motion by tilting with the upper body, but your lower body has to accelerate ahead to catch yourself in dynamic balance to your intended next move.

I think when people are talking about tilting and the head leading targetward, this is most often a reaction from leaning/tilting back away off balance before that with the poor concept that they really need to "shift their weight back".

When people are talking about head turning being a problem, it usually stems from over-rotating to the hit position/rounding/collapsing the shoulder.

 

[Sheep]

Neutral is good, or balanced. What you are describing with wrestling is steering the head from an external force/person. This can happen in a swing when you tilt off balance from your center of gravity, but turning the head doesn't affect balance, so when people talk about "leading with head" what are they really talking about... tilting or turning? Is either really bad? When you go to walk/run you start the motion by tilting with the upper body, but your lower body has to accelerate ahead to catch yourself in dynamic balance to your intended next move.

I think when people are talking about tilting and the head leading targetward, this is most often a reaction from leaning/tilting back away off balance before that with the poor concept that they really need to "shift their weight back".

When people are talking about head turning being a problem, it usually stems from over-rotating to the hit position/rounding/collapsing the shoulder.

I generally see this come in as a literal leading with the head.

The swing starts and their head drives the shot, not their body.


The descriptor for wrestling is just one part, but in all animals and people, where the head goes the body follows. The problem with leading with the head, if you're literally leading with the head, is that the body will follow in an unconventional way, not in a controlled fashion. Which is why I used the wrestling analogy. If I grab your head gear and slam your head into the matt, your body is going to follow it in a not very controlled manor even though you're fighting against it.

So if you lead your swing que's with the head by driving with the head, your body will not follow the head very well.

As demonstrated by players like Climo and Paul, you can turn your head into the shot, but they are very neutral with their head and neck muscles. They are not throwing their head into the shot. The more Neutral we keep our head, the more the body can flow around the head vs following the head and us compensating.

I don't generally look or comment on head "tilting." But generally when looking at form reviews look at head driving, which just in turn causes muscling.
And its something I struggled with personally. And I sometimes still do it, and I can tell I still do it because my shot power goes to crap, my control goes to crap and my neck starts to hurt.

So I step back and just remember to keep the head neutral and relaxed, and the power and accuracy comes back as the body flows, vs the body following.

Does that make it make more sense?

I try and leave some of the balance stuff out of it because that might be a case by case when doing a review or helping with someone's form. Is their upper body compensating for poor lower body, or visa versa.

And sometimes that head tilt is poor timing trying to be encouraged by changing that balance, vs changing our base.


----
Re-reading your comments, I think we are talking about 2 completely different things.
But not necessarily in disagreement either.

 

[Brychanus]

Learning the patience to develop the form and patience in the swing is a long battle for me.

I often struggled with what I thought was getting my head "ahead of" the swing and looking early for the target/rushing. But often the head position is a symptom of underlying bad posture. As I keep learning tricks to get my body to improve posture, I think less and less about what my head is doing and neck torque is instant feedback to relax and let it flow with my body (here again swinging weights helps fast). So tricks may be needed to find ways to maintain that good posture through the whole swing.

I think people might be remaining head-specific issues on top of that, but getting the body into more natural strong positions can really do most of the work - but like everything, the path to getting there can vary person to person.

Not sure this is saying anything different but seems consistent w/ some of the above.

 

[Sheep]

Learning the patience to develop the form and patience in the swing is a long battle for me.

I often struggled with what I thought was getting my head "ahead of" the swing and looking early for the target/rushing. But often the head position is a symptom of underlying bad posture. As I keep learning tricks to get my body to improve posture, I think less and less about what my head is doing and neck torque is instant feedback to relax and let it flow with my body (here again swinging weights helps fast). So tricks may be needed to find ways to maintain that good posture through the whole swing.

I think people might be remaining head-specific issues on top of that, but getting the body into more natural strong positions can really do most of the work - but like everything, the path to getting there can vary person to person.

Not sure this is saying anything different but seems consistent w/ some of the above.

I think thats a good clarification on what I was saying.

I notice this issue with myself.
When my posture and form is off, bad habits sneak in to try and compensate, such as muscling or leading with the head, or both.

And form/posture to set up the body to throw is important.

I cannot say I have a definite idea of how everything should be.
But thats why I'm here so we can discuss and come to a better understanding together and learn together with our different observations and techniques that we approach teaching and our own form.

 

[RowingBoats]

Learning the patience to develop the form and patience in the swing is a long battle for me.

I often struggled with what I thought was getting my head "ahead of" the swing and looking early for the target/rushing. But often the head position is a symptom of underlying bad posture. As I keep learning tricks to get my body to improve posture, I think less and less about what my head is doing and neck torque is instant feedback to relax and let it flow with my body (here again swinging weights helps fast). So tricks may be needed to find ways to maintain that good posture through the whole swing.

I think people might be remaining head-specific issues on top of that, but getting the body into more natural strong positions can really do most of the work - but like everything, the path to getting there can vary person to person.

Not sure this is saying anything different but seems consistent w/ some of the above.

I agree with this entirely. This is one of the main hurdles - the difference between 'feeling' like you are putting effort in, and correctly imparting actual, powerful forces. I fall into the trap still, even knowing this all, from time to time.

The main 'trick' is really just to realize that this is the truth lol. It feels too easy to stay in good posture and deliver a smooth, efficient swing. Even when it goes as far as we ever throw, I think humans just have some psychological barrier to accepting it. We want to apply more movement than is required, because it feels like we did something.

 

[Sheep]

I agree with this entirely. This is one of the main hurdles - the difference between 'feeling' like you are putting effort in, and correctly imparting actual, powerful forces. I fall into the trap still, even knowing this all, from time to time.

The main 'trick' is really just to realize that this is the truth lol. It feels too easy to stay in good posture and deliver a smooth, efficient swing. Even when it goes as far as we ever throw, I think humans just have some psychological barrier to accepting it. We want to apply more movement than is required, because it feels like we did something.

This is why the language we use is so important to me when we talk about what we are doing.

The less mental strain we can provide in instruction to ourselves, the better we can perform those actions.

 

[Brychanus]

I agree with this entirely. This is one of the main hurdles - the difference between 'feeling' like you are putting effort in, and correctly imparting actual, powerful forces. I fall into the trap still, even knowing this all, from time to time.

The main 'trick' is really just to realize that this is the truth lol. It feels too easy to stay in good posture and deliver a smooth, efficient swing. Even when it goes as far as we ever throw, I think humans just have some psychological barrier to accepting it. We want to apply more movement than is required, because it feels like we did something.

Totally. I actually just noticed something interesting in terms of effort about the difference between standstills and the X-step, and it's part of why the X-step is so good at "hiding" mechanics mistakes. I'll pick on myself here if it is instructive.

I was working on stuff a few days ago. You can hopefully see in each of the 4 standstills at the beginning here that I appear to be "tipping" toward the target incorrectly exiting my backswing.


I was slowly sorting out that it had something to do with my posture, but as usual SW22 cut right to the chase that I wasn't "trapping" the disc properly with my chest, which blew my mind and made me seek to learn new tricks to practice develop the right "trapping" posture. If you watch again closely I'm also stepping away from the target in my standstill backswing, which contributes to the problem because I can't as easily rely on the leverage from the rear foot/maintain good posture in the backswing. It's impossible to swing a heavy weight like a kettlebell with "chest trapped" posture in effortless balance with that little stepping mistake.

The lesson I learned about effort is that the same posture problem exists in my standstills and X-step in the montage there, but I had a harder time (1) seeing it in the x-step and (2) feeling it in my x-step. That's because I could "cheat" the way I bring momentum into the plant in the X-step and stay in relatively better balance off the more "planted" drive leg. The x-step was yielding more accurate distance at less effort since I'm still getting some of the momentum boost there - but it has the same posture problem if you look closely.

The thing is, I don't think you can "fake" your way through the standstill swing the same way as the x-step, so it was immediately a little more effortful and obvious to me while throwing that something was wrong. I just didn't know what to fix. Annoyingly, I'm consciously aware of the little step mistake but I keep doing it, so I went back to the "swing something heavy" training manual.

This is why I conceded to spend much more time with standstills than the x-step - 90% of the time sorting stuff out in standstills makes the 10% of time I spend on the x-step way more efficient at this point. The battle to mitigate standstill effort is an awesome teacher.

 

[Brychanus]

We want to apply more movement than is required, because it feels like we did something.

You evoked one other "wisdom in disc golf" thought - the X-step you see above is by far my lowest-effort move to date and generates plenty of accuracy and decent power even though it is faulty. I could stop here and have a fairly "useful" swing. But it's not ideal for my body, my standstills look ugly, and I just can't back down from the challenge at this point. Hopefully I don't become just another victim to the sunk cost fallacy.

 

[ChrisinFL]

Sounds perfect... though I would change it just a bit to say coming in hot and having steering too hard into the curve skidding out as early release and going too wide off the shoulder = grip lock.

I did kinda on my own when i first came to this forum to correct my form questions, my grip locks had a lot to do with starting too fast, decelerating through what should have been the hit and then getting the rip in what should have been the follow through.

So... yeah analogy still works but both early release and grip lock are results of too much initial velocity/effort.

:thmbup:

I rarely grip lock, but when I do, I think it is usually me getting off balance, probably because I am trying to throw too hard, and I get so focused on balance/not falling down, I am somehow unable to release the disc. My fingers are locked on it. It rips out, way right of where I was aiming.